Where Empathy Meets Action: The Path to Mental Wellness with Kyle Kittleson

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (00:00)
Welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now, the podcast where we dive deep into the moments of transformation, the times when not yet shifts into right now and everything changes. I'm your host, Jen Ginty, and this podcast is all about those pivotal moments in our life journeys. You know the ones, when the hesitation fades, when we take that first step, even if it feels like a leap. It's in these moments that growth and healing begins. Each episode will explore stories of resilience,

moments of clarity, and the sparks that ignite real change. From personal experiences to expert insights, we'll uncover how people navigate the complex journey we call life and come out stronger on the other side. Whether you're searching for that spark in your own life or just curious about how change unfolds for others, you're in the right place. We'll discuss the ups and downs, the breakthroughs and setbacks, and how to embrace the right now, even when it feels out of reach. Because sometimes,

The hardest part of the journey is realizing that the moment you've been waiting for has already arrived. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's get started.

Jen (01:10)
Hello and welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now. I'm your host Jen Ginty and today's guest is someone who brings heart, expertise and purpose to every conversation. Kyle Kittleson is a published author, animal behaviorist and television host who has dedicated his career to advocating for both animal welfare and mental health. He's the on-camera host for MedCircle, a leading mental health education platform

where he helps make complex topics accessible and engaging. Kyle's unique background includes training over two dozen animal species from majestic California sea lions to vibrant hyacinth macaws, and serving as an animal expert for major networks like ABC and NBC. His work bridges science, compassion, and public engagement, and his mission is clear, to improve the lives of both animals and humans through education.

empathy and storytelling. Welcome, Kyle.

Kyle Kittleson (02:12)
Hey, yay, and thank you. Man, it's so nice to have someone just give your whole bio like.

Jen (02:14)
Yes! ⁓

Yeah, yeah, you have a very wide bio with so many different things that you've done from animals to mental health. You're a plethora of...

Kyle Kittleson (02:32)
I know,

you know, I was there, not to go off on a quick tangent story, but yesterday, someone was telling me, reminding me of this person who was in our friend circle, and she was a ⁓ liar. She lied about everything. ⁓ And I'm not saying like, I love your dress when she hated it. I'm saying she said she used to be a pilot and used to be a sushi chef and all these things. And I believed all of it.

And my friends said, well, Kyle, it makes sense that you would believe it because you've done a lot of stuff too. But most people haven't done as much of different things as you have. So I do, I do get that. Yeah.

Jen (03:15)
Yes, I can't wait to jump into it. So let's get into it. What is your origin story?

Kyle Kittleson (03:23)
⁓ it's such a good question. And when I hear that question, I really jump into the saddest part of my life. And maybe that's the wrong way, but it's the way that my brain went. And really the saddest part of my life when it was, when I was 16 years old and my mom died and my mom was the, mean, you call me a mama's boy and all capital letters, you know, like I was mama's boy.

And ⁓ that is so in so many ways the start of my story because that was a new life that I had to start living at 16. And before then, I had a very idealistic, I call it almost a fairy tale life ⁓ with a really close family that was connected. ⁓ You know, we had ⁓

We had all the necessities and plus more and we were very comfortable and everyone got along and loved each other. And then this huge thing happened, you know, and I remember being in, I think I was an eighth grade and the girl behind me in Spanish class, she, her mom had died. And I remember thinking that is so I'm to use the word crazy. I know people don't like that, but that is so crazy that

Someone's mom died. I just can't believe that happens to people. Still not thinking that would ever, ever, ever, ever happen to me. And then years later, I'm talking two, three years later, it happened to me. And the year before she died, I remember telling another girl in math class, apparently I do a lot of reflection in my classes, but in math class, she asked me, well, what if your parents died? And I said, if my parents died, I would just turn to drugs. I would just be done and I would turn to drugs. There would be no reason for me to keep going.

And I think that really expresses why my origin story starts around the age of 16, because I didn't turn to drugs. I had this incredible realization that I was resilient. And I mean, really resilient. Goodness, we don't realize how resilient we are until we're put in a scenario that we never thought we would get through and then we get through it. And so, yeah, so it was, ⁓ so that was a, that was a big part. And then

Jen (05:45)
No, you're exactly right on that.

Kyle Kittleson (05:51)
From there, I decided to pursue ⁓ college at the University of Alabama after high school. And I ⁓ was on the speech and debate team and had a lot of fun and did that. But what I really wanted to do back then when I was little 18 year old Kyle was I wanted to go make money. That's the truth. Okay. I was money driven. And by the way, I don't villainize money either. A lot of people do.

I still don't. It's not a taboo topic for me either. ⁓ But I so I decided I'm going to major in real estate. And then after I got my major in real estate, my bachelor's of science in real estate, it was the first ⁓ it was the first bachelor's of science in real estate. I then decided, well, I want to be a dolphin trainer. And you know, that's a normal progression real estate, dolphin training, speech and debate.

Jen (06:45)
Real estate? Yeah.

Kyle Kittleson (06:48)
And so

I started to see, what would that journey be like to become a dolphin trainer? And no one really, there wasn't really any information out there. And I found this unpaid internship in Hawaii and you might hear my bird in the background, by the way, I'm a big animal lover. So there is a bird going on. Hopefully it's not too distracting.

Jen (07:04)
⁓ yeah. Yes.

No.

Kyle Kittleson (07:09)
But

⁓ I got this unpaid internship in Hawaii. I'm living with 23 girls. I'm the only guy I'm living in a cot in a hallway in this house that I'm renting in Waimanalo. I'm making $0 an hour. And I'm working at this Marine Park working with all these animals. And I thought I was the luckiest person in the world. I was like, nobody has it better than me. I'm 22 living in Hawaii working with dolphins, even if I'm doing a scrubbing buckets. And I just loved it. So they hired me.

I ⁓ went to, ⁓ from there I worked there for many years and then I really wanted to work with killer whales. And that is a controversial topic. It wasn't back then, but now it is certainly a controversial topic. And so I went to Florida in Orlando and the day I interviewed at SeaWorld Orlando was the same exact day that Don was killed by Tillicum the killer whale.

And that created a very unique time in my life. And a few weeks later, I actually did an interview. I left, I had to come back and interview. Of course, it was a whole rigmarole, but I eventually got hired there and worked at their dolphin facility for many years before finally getting transferred to work with Shamu where I worked with killer whales. And then I got over it. You know, the killer whale space was really under fire with blackfish. Sea World was under fire from the

the movie Blackfish, I was not happy with the government's involvement in the matter. And so I finally left and I said, all right, now I'm gonna go pursue another dream. And that dream was to be a host. I wanted to be like a Jeff Corwin or Steve Irwin or whatever, you know? And I went to LA with dreams of being a host and man, I tried everything I could y'all.

I tried to pitch my own show, I auditioned for shows, I did stuff on live streaming, on social media, everything I could. And I never really got there, but I did have some success. And that's where MedCircle found me and said, hey, would you come interview these doctors? And I go, sure, I love a paycheck. And I went and interviewed these doctors and one of them was Dr. Romany. And we put that video, Dr. Romany is a clinical psychologist and her background and

her career is really built around narcissism. She's explored other areas of mental health, but it's really built around narcissism. And we did a video, it's terrible y'all. my gosh, it's so bad. It's like I'm bad, the camera's bad. Everyone, it's just bad. Dr. Romany is great, of course, and everything else is bad. And we put that video out on YouTube and it got millions and millions of views. And my now boss said, hey, we should make more of these videos and let's do it. And I said, okay, so I quit my job.

in LA and shut down all my work in LA and I packed up with my little dog and moved to Carlsbad right across the street from their studio. And then for years, all I did was wake up and go into the studio and interview mental health professionals on virtually every topic. And I've been doing that for seven years. And I know you asked for my origin story and I went career wise, but that is so much of my life is what I've decided to do with my career.

always almost battled this dichotomy between doing what I love but also having the ability to make money because you know dolphin trainers are not making any money ⁓ and you know my rent every month they want more it's just you know they really are insistent on me paying the rent every single month so I gotta keep that money coming in so I think ⁓ that's why I always go to the career it's such a ⁓

Jen (10:40)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Kittleson (11:00)
obvious place for me to start for my origin story.

Jen (11:04)
Yeah, you know, I think for myself, when I had gone through my own trauma and was getting into college and getting into a career, that is the peak time where I said not yet about looking back at my trauma. It was kind of an easy way out, but also a way for me to cope until I could deal with it.

Kyle Kittleson (11:20)
Mmm.

Do you think that is, how do you think that, do you think that decision to not deal with it then was a good one, a bad one, or just the one?

Jen (11:44)
It was the one that had to be chosen at that time, I think. Yeah, I think it was because everything was just beginning in my life at that point. ⁓ When I was a teenager and halfway through college, I was going to court to put my abuser in prison. And by that end of that, I just, I had had enough of it. I had enough of feeling that victim feeling.

Kyle Kittleson (11:47)
It was the one.

Mm-hmm.

Jen (12:15)
and that I just wanted to let it go and live my life and live a positive, encouraging life that made me happy. And sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't. Right.

Kyle Kittleson (12:25)
Yeah. You know, I think.

Yeah, welcome to life. ⁓

So many people in the mental health space, I believe that they put so much of a priority on healing and getting to that other side and accomplishing this like, this goal, whatever that is. And I tried to advocate though, that's great. You want to go do that? That's great applause. I'll be there right there with you.

I also think we should applaud the people and support the people who go, you know what? My trauma is over here in this little tiny box and I'm not looking at it, dealing with it or doing anything about it right now. And that also is your call and a call that is okay to have. This idea that I know people with immense trauma and their decision to cope is to put it away. And I've asked doctors on MedCircle, yeah, compartmentalize.

Jen (13:23)
Compartmentalize.

Kyle Kittleson (13:26)
I've asked doctors and meds are gonna go, won't that make you sick? What doesn't, mean, you won't ever heal, know, yada yada yada. And they go, hold on, hold on, hold on. Maybe that's for you. But for this person, this is what they're choosing to do, what they want to do. And it might be the way that they are coping the best they can today. And maybe next year that'll change or maybe it'll stay this way forever. But this idea that we always have to

deal with it. It's like my mom died when I was 16, right? I have no pictures of her anywhere in my house anywhere. I don't have a picture of her on my phone. If I had to get a picture, I'd have to go in a box in a storage unit somewhere, dig through a whole bunch of stuff to pull out of an old picture. Okay. And I asked one of the psychiatrists at MedCircle, Dr. Lam, about this. said, Dr. Lam, I'm not asking if

If I haven't processed my mother's death, I would say, no, I haven't. even, I'm not even, I can't even look at a picture of her. Okay. I'm, I'm acknowledging that that that's there, but is it okay that I'm doing this? Like, is it okay? And she goes, do you think it's okay? I go, I think it's okay. She goes, it's okay. And so, you know, it's, get to do it however we want to do it. You want to be the person who does the workbook and goes all in and you know, does the workshop. Great. But if you want to put it away,

forever or for a little bit, I also think that's okay. And I'm not trying to get other people to think it's okay, I'm just sharing, that's what I think, I think that's okay.

Jen (14:59)
I agree with you 100%. I think that if it's working for you and you're doing what you love, doing what you need to do, doing what you want to do, it's when it becomes toxic for you. When it starts to creep up in the back of your mind, when you hit a point in your life where you know something is holding you back. I feel like that's the clue. But it doesn't mean that you have to spend your whole life searching.

Kyle Kittleson (15:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jen (15:29)
for the ideal way to get over something.

Kyle Kittleson (15:34)
Yeah, and maybe even I would add, maybe getting over it, whatever your definition of that is, of course, but when I hear that, maybe that's not even possible. Maybe that's not even the goal. ⁓ know, getting I think one of the traumas is all subjective, of course. But one of the worst things that I can think of is a parent losing their child. I just I put that up there as just

one of the worst.

Jen (16:06)
I think that's my

biggest fear in life, is I have two sons and that every day that my sons leave me, I say, please be careful, stay safe because of that. Yeah, oh, absolutely, yeah. They're 21 and 18, so they're fresh adults. Mm-hmm.

Kyle Kittleson (16:14)
Can I ask how old they are? Are you comfortable talking about them on here? How old are they? Yeah. And they're okay. And they're not six years old. And

you're, you have that feeling, but you and I, I think every mom, especially moms, but probably every parent who's listening to that nodded their head in agreement. They go, me too. Me too. When you have that worry, what are you worried about? Is it something specific?

Jen (16:40)
An accident is usually, my son, when he was leaving for work, he works at night, he left for work and had an accident immediately outside of our house, like on the main street. And I heard this insane crash when I knew that he was leaving. And I ran out there so fast and he was safe, but the car was destroyed. And I feel like my life flashed before me.

Kyle Kittleson (16:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jen (17:08)
when I saw the car and when I saw him, was as if, like, I don't know, Lazarus appeared to me. Like he made it through, he's okay.

Kyle Kittleson (17:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

How was he? Was he shaken up or was he like,

Jen (17:25)
He was, he was shaken up. And I think he was very happy that I was there to help him cope with the situation because I think he was probably like 19, 20 at the time. But that feeling of when I heard that crash, knowing that my son had just left our house, it was like a cold wind went through me. I turned to ice and just.

Kyle Kittleson (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jen (17:53)
ran without shoes, anything right out to the street to see what happened.

Kyle Kittleson (17:59)
Once you figured out he was okay, physically safe, what did you do?

Jen (18:08)
I breathed. took a couple big breaths and I tried to use my own coping skills that I've built up in my own toolbox, Like the box breathing, the checking around and looking for five things I see, four things I hear. Yeah, there's so many different coping skills that you can use.

Kyle Kittleson (18:11)
That's a good start,

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Love that one. Yeah.

Jen (18:37)
But I'm lucky that I do have those coping skills. I know there are so many people out there that don't.

Kyle Kittleson (18:46)
I know and I want to get back to, want to bring up somatic experiencing ⁓ once I say this other point. You're right about that, the coping skills, because I have, I mean, I I've got to have at least a hundred.

Jen (18:50)
Yes.

Kyle Kittleson (19:04)
And I'm talking about 100 that I've learned on MedCircle from the doctors. We practice them from breathing exercises, visualization exercises, in body exercises, interviewing yourself, inner child work, attachment theory work, mean, name a thing. I've done it over and over and over again. And so to me, the toolbox, the knives are sharp and the hammer is strong. It's ready to go. And I've used them in scenarios that do not matter, okay? Like little, the airport is stressful, so I can use my coping skills.

It's it's you got to use your coping skills when they don't quote matter that much so that you have some repetitions under your belt so that when you hear a car accident outside of your house, you aren't using this coping skill for the very first time. That's where people go. Well, I'm going to use my coping skill when I get really, really stressed out. go use it like when you're barely stressed, you know, practice it all the time. ⁓ Yeah.

Jen (20:02)
Yeah, use it when it's ticked you off, know, something's

ticked you off. You know, just use it for when you got a scare from your cat. Something like that, right?

Kyle Kittleson (20:05)
Yeah.

Yes. That's the perfect

example. That's the first one therapist says, you know, you got to go on your stupid little mental health walk every day. And I love that little saying. ⁓ And I love ⁓ I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that cat thing like stupid, like stupid little ⁓ coping scenarios or something where you get scared by a freaking cat and now you're doing box breathing, you know. That's very good. Well, when I think that breathing

Jen (20:19)
Hahaha

Kyle Kittleson (20:39)
reaction, the deep breaths, your five, four, three, two, one, after going through that immense trauma at the time. I have found so much value in almost doing the opposite, where once I know it's good, okay, because the truth is sometimes we can't use our coping skills because we're in an emergency and we have to be present and we have to talk to the police and we have to da da da da and we got to be on top. Okay, grit, get through it. I get it.

But when that's done and you walk into your house, what a lot of people do and what I always did was, all right, now I'm going to get rid of these feelings I don't like because I don't like feeling this way. And I get that.

But what I've learned, and I'm not an expert, okay, but what I've learned in somatic experiencing is the value of actually physically moving your body. And instead of trying to calm yourself down, almost lean into the negative energy. I'm not above screaming into a pillow or punching my couch just to get it out.

And the example, if you've never heard of somatic experiencing, the way it was described to me when I finally understood it is actually an animal example, which makes sense to me, because animals make sense to me most of the time. ⁓ When you see a rabbit in the wild and it's getting chased by a fox, as soon as it evades capture, the rabbit often will shake their whole body, just shake out their legs and move their head back and forth.

And then right after that, they're eating grass again, like nothing had ever happened. They were just being hunted. Their life was on the line. And this rabbit is able to shake it off and go back to eating grass. Now granted, they're not people, we're more complex. But we can still learn from that rabbit. And what people do is they don't shake it off. They don't get it out. They hold it in. And then it takes longer. And by the way,

it does come out eventually. When you're on the couch and you're like, why am I crying? Or when you're on your second pint of ice cream and you're like, wait, what am I doing for this? It's coming out some way. But in this way, I feel like I'm in control. I love I love the topic of control because I think I have a problem with it actually control because I love it so much. Like if I'm in control, I'm good. I'm like really and then I'm not in control. I go okay, okay, I to be the rabbit and shake a little bit. ⁓

Jen (23:09)
yeah. yeah.

Hahaha

Kyle Kittleson (23:18)
But it gives me some of that control back in an environment where I felt out of control.

Jen (23:24)
Yeah, I love that idea of just shaking up, because my favorite saying is this too shall pass. I have to say it a lot to myself if I'm being triggered, I'm having frustrations with my diagnoses, those kind of things. You have to remember that in the sadness, in the anger, in the fear, it passes eventually. That feeling inside you does end. Yeah.

Kyle Kittleson (23:51)
And it

Jen (23:54)
And I think a lot of people

are so afraid of something like sadness because they don't want to sit in it. It hurts so much. But sitting in it allows your body to shake out like the rabbit.

Kyle Kittleson (24:01)
Totally.

Yeah. Shake out like the rabbit. My dog died in February and she died. her for 13 years. She died. I'm crying. I cried way harder with my dog dying than when my mom died. Okay. I can't explain it. It was just how it happened. And I cried so much that I was in the bathroom crying and then I'm like, my gosh, I'm to throw up. So then I'm crying and throwing up at the same time. It was just like a total thing.

Jen (24:10)
I'm so sorry.

Kyle Kittleson (24:35)
So the next morning I wake up and the first thought I had was sadness. The first feeling I had was sadness. And I felt all the emotion and tears coming. And I pushed him down. And I said, I don't wanna do, I've been crying all freaking night. I don't wanna cry this morning. I don't wanna do it anymore. And I pushed it down. And I talked to one of the MedCircle doctors about this in this workshop. At MedCircle we do live workshops with our doctors and they talk about.

whatever the topic is, trauma, depression, whatever. And then we go through these exercises and we take questions from the audience. And because I get to host them, I'm like, well, here's my question. I'm pushing down my emotions the next day after my dog died because I just didn't want to cry anymore. How bad is that? And they're like, Kyle, come on, that's not even the right question. How bad is that? You know, the judgment of my choice.

Jen (25:29)
Yes.

Kyle Kittleson (25:31)
was the first thing. It's like, I can't just mourn my dog. I have to then push down my tears and then judge it and then bring it up. And it's like, we have the autonomy and the privilege of choosing sometimes, sometimes we can't choose because it's just too much, but oftentimes to either cry in a pillow and sulk or not. And if you choose one or the other,

It's so easy for us to guilt, to feel shame or guilt for one of those. And we don't have to. You get to not cry if you don't want to cry, you know? And it doesn't make you bad for not wanting to cry.

Jen (26:11)
Right. And that judgment, we judge ourselves so much more than we judge other people, right? It's insanity.

Kyle Kittleson (26:18)
my gosh.

Well, there are a few people I judge more than me. Yeah, but no, you're right. mean, I am like, you know, the old the old saying or at it or I don't know example of talked, how would you ever talk to your friend the best way you talk to yourself? Never, never. But my best friend says anything negative or anything. I'm like, my gosh, no, you're the you're like the bat. How could you even think that? And we don't

Jen (26:21)
Well, yeah, there are definitely people out there. I put the judgment on.

Mm-mm.

Kyle Kittleson (26:47)
do it to ourselves. And you know what, you know what I'm really good at? I'm an expert at this, okay? I'm good at judging myself, recognizing that I'm judging myself, and then going, ⁓ so you think you're this, like, great mental health expert advocate, and here you are judging yourself. And then I'm judging myself for judging myself. It's just like this non stop thing, you know?

Jen (27:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, know, my therapist had said to me yesterday, she's like, if somebody asked you, you know, were they, they were feeling this same thing that you're feeling right now, would you tell them to get over it? Like you're telling yourself? You know, I would never tell someone like a friend or a family member, just get over it. But I tell myself that all the time. Get over it. Get your shit together.

Kyle Kittleson (27:17)
and ⁓

Yeah.

No. I know.

Why do you? Why? Why do we do that? Why do you do that?

Jen (27:47)
I do that because I just hear that from my mother. I have my mother's voice in the back of my head that whenever I would get upset, whenever I was feeling badly for myself, it was get your shit together.

Kyle Kittleson (27:59)
Yeah, mine was a suck it up. Suck it up. Yeah, it's a it's it's so funny. It's it is funny to me. It doesn't all come back to our parents and some way or another. You you say no. Okay, tell me.

Jen (28:16)
No, no, doesn't. No,

no, I don't believe that either. That just happens to be my inner voice is that one person.

Kyle Kittleson (28:25)
Okay, got it. Got it. Because I

can all I can point back to so many things in my life where I'm going, I think like that because my dad ⁓ I do that because of my mom. It's like this thing I can go back to so many times and say, that's why I am the way that I am. And I like I like that feeling. ⁓ My therapist loves it because

feels like every therapist is like their first question, tell me about your relationship with your parents. That's like one of the first ones they love to throw out there. But it's hard for us to look at that sometimes too, because as much of the good things we are because of who we are surrounded by growing up, parents or friends or teachers or whoever, often the things we don't like about ourselves come from that same pool. That's so funny you said that. don't.

Jen (28:55)
Hmm?

Yeah. Do you watch the bear?

Kyle Kittleson (29:20)
Two nights ago, I was like, I'm with my brother right now. And I go, let's watch the bear. And he goes, I've already seen it, so we don't watch it. Why do you bring the bear up?

Jen (29:27)
⁓

well, because it's interesting, the voice and memory that Carmy, the main character has, the voice in his head is this horrific chef that he worked under, who used to tell him, would even told him to kill himself, like in the middle of plating and doing the whole restaurant thing. So when he thinks about himself, he hears

this chef telling him how terrible he is and how he should kill himself. it's so it makes me interested in that idea of tell me about your mother and father because it isn't always them. There is a voice, you know, there are so many people out there, mentors, teachers that have said the wrong thing or have treated you in the way that, you know, just isn't healthy for anyone, especially if it's a child.

Kyle Kittleson (30:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, especially. So you mentioned earlier, you go to your coping mechanisms when you get triggered. What, and you've talked to some about your triggers, but what are some of your triggers that keep coming up for you that you would think maybe even by now you go, why is that still triggering me? Or do you have any of those?

Jen (30:47)
I think there's a generalized fear when I get scared. So you probably have heard of it before, but the primary and secondary emotion switch. Yeah, where I will get scared and I immediately switch to anger. I usually switch to anger for most things because it feels most in control. Like we were talking about control, it just feels so good. And so that tends to be

Kyle Kittleson (30:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jen (31:14)
What I will do in most situations is if I'm feeling scared or if I'm feeling sad or some other intense emotion, I will switch to anger. So I use this coping skill of checking the facts where I sit back, take the emotion out of the situation and go through it step by step. This is what happened. I use, for an example, I use being ⁓ cut off like road rage.

Kyle Kittleson (31:41)
Mm.

Jen (31:42)
Because what's the first thing we think about when someone cuts us off?

Kyle Kittleson (31:44)
So wait,

you get angry when someone cuts you off in traffic. Okay.

Jen (31:48)
yeah, well also I'm

from Boston, I'm a mass hole. ⁓ So, you know, just immediate, you know, I grew up in this road rage head space, yes. And what's the first thing we feel when someone cuts us off? Fear, because we have to step on the brake. We might've hit someone. And immediately jump from that fear, because you don't like that feeling, to that anger.

Kyle Kittleson (31:56)
Yeah, that's right. It's innate within you. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jen (32:15)
and then you

get into the road rage and you start chasing them and flipping them off. My ex-husband used to tell me, okay, I need you to remember they could have a gun. Because I was a rager back in the day. He's like, they could have had a gun, they could have a gun. Just try to remember that. I'm still a rager. My kids, just not as much. Yeah, no, with age, I've less raged.

Kyle Kittleson (32:19)
Mm-hmm.

You

Yeah.

Wait, so you were a rager back in the day, not anymore? You're still rager. You were rager then, you're a rager now. Not as much.

Yeah.

Jen (32:45)
You know, but my kids still are like, you're crazy. You're out of control. Yeah.

Kyle Kittleson (32:48)
Yeah, well they're your kids, you know?

Yeah, I think I was a rager back in the day. There are some customer service calls that I have been on where I have been so angry and so, I mean, I've cried on them before because I get so stressed out. And I remember being in my mid-20s and thinking,

This is not helping me how I respond to these situations and they keep coming. They're not stopping. So either I'm going to keep going as I'm going and get riled up and have it ruin half my day and say things I shouldn't say and do things that I'll regret. Or I need to get it together here and find a different way to move through these scenarios. And it took years.

years. But what it taught me as well as that change is possible. Okay, a lot of us get into the to our little habits and we go I am how I am and everyone just kind of has to deal and maybe they do every now and then. But we also have the ability to change if that's what we want to do and it won't be quick. Like Jen, I was not an empathic. I was empathic but I was on a two out of 10 on empathy.

from zero, the age of zero to 30. Okay, we'll say when I was 30 and I asked Dr. Romany, one of your fave doctors, I asked Dr. Romany, she's a clinical psychologist for those listening. And I said, what should we be teaching our children number one? Like what's number one? She didn't even hesitate. She goes empathy. She goes empathy solves so many things in your life if you have that built in and we don't teach it. And then she said, by the way, after

Jen (34:25)
Yes.

Kyle Kittleson (34:46)
empathy. She goes in a close second as resilience. And I actually think when you have those two together, watch out world you are you've got it going on honey. Okay, you are so you're empathic and you're resilient. Whoo. Get get in line. I want to meet you, you know. And so I go well, Dr. Romney, how do I become empathic? I know that's I know I should be but I'm not she goes, What do mean you're not I go, if my friend calls me and they go, John broke up with me again, I'd be like, honey.

Jen (34:54)
You're unstoppable. Yep.

Kyle Kittleson (35:14)
He breaks up with you every three weeks. Get rid of this loser. Come on, you know, not empathic at all. She goes, Kyle, you've got to start practicing empathy. This again goes back to when it doesn't matter. I go, what do you mean? She goes, when you're on a flight and the guy next to you starts talking to you about whatever you need to sit there and you need to take your headphones out and you need to listen to him and empathize with him and

wonder what it feels like to be with him and connect and do all those things. And who cares if you're good at it or not, because it's just some guy on the plane. You're not going to see him in after two hours, but you practice there so that when your friend calls you and John has broken up with her for the 20th time, you can show some empathy rather than what you're doing now. And I go, you know, of course I'm like, I don't want to do this, but okay, Dr. Romney, I'll do it. And that's the thing too, y'all.

Jen (36:05)
Hahaha

Kyle Kittleson (36:09)
You don't ever have to want to do these things sometimes. don't have to want to do the box breathing. It can still work even if you don't want to do it. ⁓ So I practice that. I'm very empathic now. I I feel different than I did. And maybe I would have gotten there regardless. I don't think so. But living an empathic lifestyle. People confuse empathy with weakness.

because they think you're just always like, it's okay. And I'm like, you're not getting to the core of it. And when you really are practicing empathy, you are creating stronger relationships, faster relationships. You understand ⁓ just the moving through the world is in a different way. And what you really start to understand

is who you are, because you are constantly putting yourself in someone else's shoes, which is a great lesson about you. And so I think empathy is one of the great teachers on our planet. And I'm so glad that I would have loved to learn it when I was four, but I didn't. I learned other things. I didn't learn empathy. But I'm glad I learned it when I was 30. And I really had it down by the time I was 34. So I'm proud about that.

Jen (37:33)
There you go. I am so glad you brought up that it can be learned, that empathy can be learned, because I think a lot of people out there think that you have to have gone through experience to learn it, to become empathetic towards others. ⁓ And many times that being a bad experience.

Kyle Kittleson (37:33)
I'm 40 y'all or I'm 39 just to give people perspective.

Mmm. Mmm.

Good point.

Jen (38:00)
that that

teaches you empathy, but you can learn it. You can become an empathic person and it starts to feel good, I'm sure, right? You know, it starts to feel good that you've made someone feel better by showing them that you understand.

Kyle Kittleson (38:12)
Yeah.

My warning sign for those who are already empathic or those who are maybe getting excited after this conversation to dive into their empathy is oftentimes, and again, y'all, I'm not a doctor, okay? I'm just talking about my thoughts, take them or leave them. But in my thoughts, many times, the people who show the most empathy can be very vulnerable to the tricks of a narcissist.

And the narcissist will often find the most empathic person in the room because that is the person who is going to, ⁓ it's the narcissist playground they're familiar with. They know what to do with that. And so as you develop your empathy, you also should, all of us should develop an understanding of narcissism. And y'all know,

The word is thrown around like the word the I hear about it all the time Okay, and by the way every single freaking person I meet their ex was a narcissist. How is this possible? Okay, okay Not every single person is a narcissist, but a lot of them are whatever so once you start to get into the to the idiosyncrasies and and Dr. Romney is the best person I've interviewed on the topic and I will say that if you're looking for an education on narcissism you go

Jen (39:22)
It is. It is.

Right, right, right.

Kyle Kittleson (39:48)
to Dr. Ramani, you know?

Jen (39:49)
I listened to a bunch of them and including the difference between a psychopath, a sociopath and a narcissist. That one I highly recommend because people throw these terms out like, just like, you know, handing out, you know, chocolate to someone, you know, it's just so easy.

Kyle Kittleson (39:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

yeah, and

not just these ⁓ more mainstream terms or commercialized terms, but also bipolar disorder and OCD and ADHD. mean, everything is so misused and I was so uneducated on mental health. Listen to this, I went to therapy when I was nine years old. Nine years old I went to therapy and got put on Prozac when I was nine.

And then I was in therapy my whole life. And then I go work for this mental health company, MedCircle, and I start interviewing doctors and they go, yeah, and you know, the gold standard for, you know, talk therapy for depression is CBT. And I was like, what's CBT? They go cognitive behavioral therapy. I go, well, what is that? And they go, well, it's, you know, it's been around forever. It's how our thoughts, our feelings and our, ⁓ you know, behaviors all intersect.

And I go, how is it that I've been in therapy for 21 years, probably engaging in CBT every day or every session, and I've never heard of this. I mean, that is shocking to me. I don't want to too on a tangent, Jen, so reel me back in, but I don't like that we do not combine therapy with psychoeducation. I want the psych, and a lot of therapists do, and a lot of people do.

But a lot of people don't. A lot of people don't even know what therapy they're in. They don't even know what, I mean, I've had, I've had, I can't even get into it. There's so many roads I could go down, but the psycho education piece for me is the game changer. It is the game changer. Community is very important. Meds, I can't, I think are incredibly important. Therapy is so wonderful and so great. And we, as the patient, get to educate ourselves on psychology and mental health.

And when you do, when you add that component to the mix, you're rocking and you're like an empathic, resilient person. You're rocking and rolling. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Jen (42:06)
Yeah, that's right. Well, you

know, I think about it this way. When I knew I had to get onto this journey of healing, I knew I had to put together my group, you my team of therapists. And, you know, I even went inpatient because I just wanted to know that I had everything around me. I knew my meds were straight, all that kind of stuff. But I think it's...

Kyle Kittleson (42:20)
Yeah.

Jen (42:33)
this new generation of therapists that are so much more open to teaching their clients. The older therapists that I had been to, they never talked about these tools, these modalities. I never heard of CBT or I ended up doing DBT, all these kinds of things. I didn't know about EMDR.

Kyle Kittleson (42:52)
NEVER.

Jen (43:02)
and the things that could help with trauma until I was introduced to my therapist now. And she's younger than me. She's much younger than me. And when I first met her, I was like, she's too young. She's not gonna be able to stand an old lady like me. ⁓ But I gave it a chance and she introduced me to so many ways of healing myself. ⁓ so good.

Kyle Kittleson (43:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ isn't that so in your echoing ⁓

a point that is is happening even outside the mental health space. More and more people I was just reading about this are seeking out the fresh graduate, the brand newbie doctor and I'm talking about for surgery and you know, yes, and the old thought is, you go with you go with the oldest guy in the room, you know, whoever that is, you go with the old one. But now find a young

Jen (43:45)
Really?

Kyle Kittleson (43:55)
vibrant 23 year old and she's like, I'm Vanessa, here I am. I just, cause they are on top of it. They have all the newest, latest and greatest. you know, Joe Schmo, who's got, you know, only a few years left before he retires. He's still using the same book that he got when he graduated. And so a lot of people are going the young route. And it makes sense to me. I've seen young and old older therapists.

Jen (44:00)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Kittleson (44:25)
I think there's so many things that go into it, but the oldest therapist I ever had, he fell asleep in my sessions no less than 10 times. No less than 10 times he fell asleep. Now he didn't take a 20 minute nap. He woke up right away, but he did one of those where he like nods off and then, yeah. And how does that make you feel? And you know, you're, you're talking about coming out of the closet at 18 to your father after your mom died and your therapist falls asleep. You're like, God.

Jen (44:33)
Are you kidding me?

Man.

Kyle Kittleson (44:55)
Maybe I shouldn't be sharing that, you know. Have you ever done a podcast episode on just bad therapy? Just bad therapy? That would be so fun. Just get like five people on, be like, what's your worst therapy experiences? Because the worst one I ever had was I'm in the dentist's chair, the dentist says your insurance didn't go through and I start bawling.

Jen (44:55)
yeah.

⁓

No. but I should.

Kyle Kittleson (45:21)
not because I cared about the insurance, but because I had reached my breaking point with everything going on in my life. And this poor dentist just happened to be the one that tipped me over. And I got in the car and I had a full on breakdown and I had no money. And I called my dad. I was like, dad, I need money. Cause if I don't see somebody right now, we're going to have some problems. And he goes, okay, you know, use, use this credit card and go get help.

that you need. go, okay, so I find this therapist, ironically, I guess in Beverly Hills, and he would see me that same day. And I walk up there, mean, y'all, I am a wreck, okay? I I can barely form ⁓ a complete thought. I should have gone to the hospital, but I went to the therapist. And he sits down and he goes, so what's going on? I go, you know, I'm having this breakdown, I don't really know. And then he goes, well,

You are in good hands because you wouldn't believe the celebrity clients that I have. mean, will you walk up and down this hall? There are celebrities. I can't even tell you about them. And you guys, I'm crying. I'm sobbing into my shirt and he's telling me about his celebrity clients. And I go, cool, cool. But like, can you talk, can you focus on the non-celebrity in the room? I E me right now. And that, that was the word. I mean, I, I never saw him again. Luckily I was smart enough to do that, but.

Jen (46:30)
Ew.

Kyle Kittleson (46:50)
how they are bad therapy things out there.

Jen (46:52)
Yeah, I

owned a boutique and it was failing. It was just going under. And I told my therapist, I don't know if I'm going to be able to pay the rent for this month. And she said, oh my god, Jen, what are you going to do?

Kyle Kittleson (47:12)
You're like, what a great question. I should have thought of that one.

Jen (47:14)
I'm

like, you're my therapist.

Kyle Kittleson (47:19)
If you're that's so terrible, you must have so much anxiety and stress about

Jen (47:24)
Yeah, I didn't go back to see her again after that.

Kyle Kittleson (47:26)
my God. But you know what?

You didn't go back and I didn't go back to the first one, but the therapist that fell asleep on me 10 times, I went back and saw him for two years. I was with him for two or three years because we, me have this idea that they are right. They have the answers. So what? fell asleep. He woke right back up. I can justify and make excuses for him all the time. And not to bring it back to the psycho education piece, now that would never be tolerated.

Jen (47:35)
Bye.

Kyle Kittleson (47:55)
I would say, Hey, if this isn't a good day for a session with you, let's reschedule. But if this is going to be habitual, I got to, I got to find a therapist who's on, who's not falling asleep. How about that? I mean, these aren't, these are basic requests and y'all we pay them. Okay. And I know there's a lot of therapists listening to this, but I'm talking to the people who are paying that we pay them. And so if you don't want to pay them, pay somebody else, you should get what you want. If you're paying somebody, I think.

Jen (48:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

I started studying this concept I call implied authority.

Kyle Kittleson (48:27)
Mmm, gimme that.

Jen (48:29)
Like I am so afraid of, let's see, the IRS. I think a lot of people are. But yeah, yeah, it's an implied authority. And I think older people, especially older people who think that they know better than you can put off this implied authority to you, that makes you think, oh, well,

Kyle Kittleson (48:35)
Yeah, me too. The whole government I always Yeah.

Jen (48:54)
they must be right because they're older and maybe more experienced or have better understanding. When we need to advocate for ourselves, right? We need to learn to advocate and say, well, no, this sucks. And I don't want to talk to you about this anymore, so I'm leaving. Bye. We sit through things thinking we don't understand ourselves enough. When we're the ones who live with ourselves,

Kyle Kittleson (49:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, who's gonna exactly, exactly. that, I really like that outside of the mental health space, the implied authority with everywhere we go. ⁓

Jen (49:33)
Mm.

Well, like seeing a policeman. Like there's that quick fear of implied authority of, well, he has authority over me when I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just walking down the street.

Kyle Kittleson (49:46)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I love finding those little deep dives like that, like implied authority or ⁓ my, ⁓ my favorite mental health therapy is acceptance and commitment therapy. Have you all talked about this on the show? Acceptance and commitment therapy? I like for people who go, okay, I want to get educated on mental health for any number of reasons. Where should I start? I go start on whatever

Jen (50:04)
No.

Kyle Kittleson (50:14)
grabs you, okay, whatever that is, start there. But if you really don't have anywhere to go, start at acceptance and commitment therapy, ACT. It's the big three, y'all, CBT, DBT, ACT, you know? And the ACT is really a lot of CBT, but it combines ⁓ more like Eastern philosophy. So it's heavy in mindfulness, for example. And one of the big mantras in ACT

Jen (50:26)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Kittleson (50:44)
is my favorite thing that I use all the time and I'm going to share it. So get ready and I hope you've never heard this so that every, I hope everyone listening has never heard it, but maybe you already have. It comes off of the idea that you are not your thoughts. And when you're having a, a thought, which we have thousands and thousands a day, when you're having a thought, you can rephrase it in your brain by using this phrase, which is instead of saying,

Jen (50:49)
Let's hear it.

Kyle Kittleson (51:14)
I, Jen hates the way this interview is going. That's my thought. Okay. This is my cognitive distortion. Hopefully it's a distortion. Jen hates the way this interview is going. I rephrase that to, I am having the thought that Jen hates the way this interview is going. And this

Jen (51:26)
It is

⁓

Kyle Kittleson (51:40)
And y'all really try it out. Don't try it once and then poo poo it. Try it out like 20 times. And what it does is it gives you this little tiny space between you and the thought. Because it's when I think Jen hates the way this interview is going, that thought is now truth. We feel it to be true. Even if it's not, we feel it to be true. you more accurately.

more based in reality phrase it, I am having the thought that Jen hates the way this interview is going, I can remove myself from that thought of which I have thousands a day and really look at it as not a part of me, but as its own unique entity. And I love that separation because we are not our thoughts and our thoughts come and they go and they come in the go. And that separation allows for constructive

⁓ review, you know what I mean? And that brings me a lot, a lot of peace. I'm having the thought that and by the way, the thought might be true. I'm having the thought that Jen hates the interview and then she sends me an email. She goes, I hated that interview. go, wow, that was a true thought. Okay, that thought was right. But you also find that most of these thoughts that you use this exercise on end up not being true. It's a worry. It's a distortion. It's not real. You know, it's just a thought.

Jen (52:50)
Hahaha!

Kyle Kittleson (53:05)
And then that brings peace. Cause then throughout the day you go, my gosh, the mailman just shoved the mail into the mailbox. He didn't even wave at me or anything. He must hate me. I'm having the thought that the mailman hates me. Okay. But maybe he doesn't. He's a mailman. I've never even actually said hi to him. I don't even know his name, you know? And you can go through all these things, but that space is huge. The space is huge. And ACT goes into...

Jen (53:27)
Right.

Kyle Kittleson (53:33)
that separation of self and your thoughts. And it's beautiful and powerful.

Jen (53:38)
It sounds amazing and I am absolutely going to get into that.

Kyle Kittleson (53:42)
Yeah, well, I'll send you

the I did a whole series on it. I'll make a note to send it to you with Dr. Judy. Dr. Judy also a great doctor. She's a triple board certified forensic and neuropsychologist and really knows ACT like the back of her hand. So she is a great teacher on that.

Jen (53:47)
Yeah.

I definitely can't wait for that. And that thought is absolutely untrue, by the way. I am loving the way this interview went. And I think we could go on and on and on, maybe have a few more episodes together talking about all of this. But I think that ending on that note is really wise, like some sage wisdom there to help people to better understand

Kyle Kittleson (54:05)
There you go. ⁓

Perfect. Good, good,

Yeah.

Jen (54:29)
that their thoughts are not always the truth, right? You know, we back ourselves into corners with our thoughts. I think that thinking the way that that, it's ACT, yeah, I think that that's a great way for people to better understand that they don't have to torture themselves with negative feelings and thoughts, right?

Kyle Kittleson (54:32)
Yeah, yeah.

ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy. Yeah.

And

y'all if that thought thing is too woo woo and too new agey, okay, fine. Here's just some stats. Here's a stat. It's about 95 % of what we worry about doesn't even come to fruition. About 95%. So when you're, ⁓ one of my favorites, one of my favorites, also right there with black and white thinking. I mean, the 19 cognitive distortions, I check them all.

Jen (55:13)
Yeah. Catastrophizing. Yep. ⁓ do it all the time.

Kyle Kittleson (55:26)
But so when you're worrying y'all, there's only a 5 % chance that's, that's going to happen. 95%. That's, those are great odds. Ride the odds, ride the good feelings of those odds. That's good. Yeah.

Jen (55:38)
Yes.

Well, I want to thank you so much, Kyle, for coming on the pod. I love this conversation. I'll say it again.

Kyle Kittleson (55:42)
Thank you.

Well, thank you what you're

doing and thank you for for selfishly from all of us the listeners. Thank you for turning your life into a classroom, your lessons into our lessons. And that is the amount of people and change that happen when you open your little laptop and put on your great pink headphones. I mean, that all it all

Jen (56:08)
to.

Kyle Kittleson (56:11)
It's those are simple motions with huge impact. And so I will say thank you on behalf of everybody. Thank you.

Jen (56:17)
Thank you. And where can we find you? know Med Circle. Everybody has to go to Med Circle. I've been on the YouTube circle.

Kyle Kittleson (56:23)
Yes, MedCircle. And I think we're giving

you guys a your listeners a discount if they ever want to join. But if you don't want to join MedCircle community, which is available at MedCircle.com, you can also find us for free on YouTube. We have 1.7 million subscribers there. We do new videos every Friday. We do live streams with different guests. And ⁓ it's a nice place to get started. And then when you're ready, use the discount for the podcast and it'll be in the show notes or somewhere I'm assuming.

Jen (56:52)
Yes.

Kyle Kittleson (56:52)
And,

⁓ you can go to medcircle.com and then if y'all need me for me, for whatever reason, I don't know why you would, but if you need to contact me, Kyle at medcircle.

Jen (57:03)
⁓ thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure, Kyle. Thanks.

Kyle Kittleson (57:05)
Thank you.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (57:13)
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the podcast. This show is produced by Phoenix Freed LLC, and I'm your producer, Jen Ginty We hope you found today's conversation insightful and inspiring. If you have a story of your own about when a not yet moment became a right now, we encourage you to reach out and share it. You can find more information about being a guest on our show at whennotyetbecomesrightnow.com. Remember, you are not alone on your journey, whether it's a journey of healing,

growth or transformation. Every story matters. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time with another inspiring episode.