Navigating Corporate PTSD and Shifting Mindsets with Jeff Sigel

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (00:00)
Welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now, the podcast where we dive deep into the moments of transformation, the times when not yet shifts into right now and everything changes. I'm your host, Jen Ginty and this podcast is all about those pivotal moments in our life journeys. You know the ones when the hesitation fades, when we take that first step, even if it feels like a leap. It's in these moments that growth and healing begins. Each episode will explore stories of resilience,

moments of clarity, and the sparks that ignite real change. From personal experiences to expert insights, we'll uncover how people navigate the complex journey we call life and come out stronger on the other side. Whether you're searching for that spark in your own life or just curious about how change unfolds for others, you're in the right place. We'll discuss the ups and downs, the breakthroughs and setbacks, and how to embrace the right now, even when it feels out of reach. Because sometimes,

The hardest part of the journey is realizing that the moment you've been waiting for has already arrived. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's get started.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (01:12)
Hello and welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now. Today's guest, Jeff Sigel is passionate about creating better careers and workplaces for middle managers. After 20 years in the corporate world, Jeff's not yet was staying in a job where he didn't fit. His right now came when he left, sought therapy, and began healing. Jeff now speaks about the mental toll of corporate life, what he calls corporate PTSD, and helps middle managers shift their mindset to thrive.

His book, The Middle Matters is a toolkit for navigating these challenges. Let's dive in. Hi, Jeff. I'm so glad you were on the show. We met through New England podcasters group and I'm so excited to share your story today. Let's get into it. What's your origin story?

Jeff Sigel (02:03)
So I guess my origin story is, sort of grew up in the Boston area as a kind of a, my dad was a physicist who later became a lawyer and he always said, you need to study science no matter what you do.

and because it's such a great training and so forth. And so that's what I did. I went off to college. I got a degree in chemistry and physics and then promptly decided to be a school teacher and then later became a marketer. So I sort of like my dad who was a scientist who became a lawyer. kind of shifted careers and so forth. And, you know, so I think I've always had this very scientific kind of analytical approach.

to the world. so, I mean, we'll talk about this more, but I think what's been fascinating for me in the last year is really discovering this whole other side of the world, this whole sort of emotional side of the world and sort of how understanding people and whatever. And so that's led me to read books that I've never read before and never would have read a year ago and just exploring different things. You mentioned therapy and...

coaching and all this kind of stuff that I've been doing to really sort of better understand, you know, people, I guess is what I would say. So I don't know if that's, less scientific or more scientific, but I think I've sort of, trying to become more, you know, integrated person, I guess.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (03:34)
Yeah, it sounds like it. I guess people would consider those two things totally like on the opposite side of the world. Right. But do you think that you found kind of like the some threads that work together?

Jeff Sigel (03:49)
Yeah, mean, absolutely. think, you know, it's fascinating, I think.

You know, actually, I just was realizing this in the last week that my whole life I have been focused on I've been reading a book I don't know if you've ever read this book amazing book if you ever read it's called Time to Think by Nancy Klein.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (04:09)
No, I'll have to check it out.

Jeff Sigel (04:11)
I will say about this book that I listened to probably 90 books last year and probably similar number every other year. I'm a book list or whatever. This is the first book where I was like, finished it. I'm like, I'm going to order a paper copy of this and reread it on paper because it was that impactful. But she talks, she's talking a lot about, thinking and taking time to ask questions and understand and not jump in and give solutions and so forth. And I think that, I think that that

that scientific sort of analytical, kind of mathematical, kind of view of the world where like there's a right answer and I need to get that answer and give it to, to the world and get it right is something that I was trained to do my whole life, right? And I think that what I've sort of realized is, hey, you know, I don't have to have the answer.

And sometimes it's better to ask, know, and I don't have to jump in and give everybody else a solution to their problem. It's just helpful to help them see what, sort of reframe the problem, rethink it by asking the right questions. And it's interesting because your question was how does that tie to science? Well, science is actually not about knowing the answer. It's about asking questions, right? And so I think there is a connection there, but I think the way we sort of learn when we're growing up.

is this assumption of, you have to get the right answer. And I think I'm trying to unlearn that. I don't need to get a right answer.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (05:36)
Well,

yeah, I guess it's the whole perfectionism thing, you know, where we're human no human is perfect and if we strive to Take our lives to perfection. We're not going to live it

Jeff Sigel (05:47)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I actually talk a lot these days about achievement mindset versus learner mindset or, Carol Dweck would have called it the fixed versus growth mindset or whatever. But, this view that I think many of us certainly I had this view until a year ago is that this belief that we are the sum of our achievements. So I am my

my college degree, my master's degree, my job title, my promotion, and whatever. it's like, I say to people, that's like saying that a book is just the periods and not the sentences, right? There was a lot that went into you becoming, getting your PhD, where you had to learn a whole bunch of stuff. to say that you, to sort of define yourself by that achievement is,

not very, it's very unsatisfying. In fact, going to probably quote Brene Brown a bunch of times here. Brene Brown talks about tells this story in one of her books, I think was like an Olympic athlete who basically won gold in the Olympics and then

Like a couple of weeks later, she's sitting in her kitchen, her mother sees her and she's just in tears. And she's like, what is the matter? You just, you're amazing. You just won Olympic gold. you've, such a huge achievement. And she said, and the daughter says to her mother, I thought I would feel different.

And that's the problem when you get into this achievement mindset is the problem with the achievement mindset is you get the achievement and then what? What next? Like I had, I was talking to this guy who used to work for me and I was, I called him up because he had just gotten promoted from manager to director, right? And he said, he said like, went home and I told my wife and she says, congratulations.

but how long is it gonna be before you start stressing about becoming a VP? Bingo, that's the problem, right? When you focus on the achievement and not the path that got you there, basically become, it's basically like, once you've achieved, you have to, now you're stuck, right? I gotta go achieve something else. This is why you hear about billionaires that can't stop earning billions.

you know, like if you have a billion dollars, you don't need to earn any more money. And yet these billionaires feel like that, you know, because there's always another billion, there's 100 billionaires or whatever somebody, know, there's always somebody who has something more, right? And so the problem with this achievement mindset is if you focus on the achievements, it's just colossally unsatisfying, right? And that very much was the mindset that I had when I was in

in the corporate environment was like, I need to get promoted. I need to get the next level. I need to get to this. I need to get to that. I need to get to, for me, the pinnacle was I wanted to be a CMO, Chief Marketing Officer, right? And when it became clear when I was in my my last corporate job that I wasn't going to become a CMO, I just sort of became, frustrated and despondent or whatever, like I can't get there. I am so a lot of the reason that I ended up leaving that job was not because necessarily they were doing anything wrong, but because

I was spending so much time beating myself up because I couldn't get to that achievement that I had set for myself as opposed to focusing on what am I learning from this experience? What am I gaining out of it now? Who cares about the end goal, right? That'll come or it won't, it doesn't matter. But because I was so focused on that achievement and I wasn't achieving it, I just was miserable all the time in that job.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (09:41)
Yeah, I've been in corporate and had that same, growth mindset of if it's not this, I want to go higher. I want to do the bigger job, the better job. Right. And I was miserable. I was having panic attacks. I was waiting for it. This was the time when you had beepers.

I was waiting for the beeper to go off in the middle of the night saying that our server went down. I have to restart it. Just like everything interrupted my life instead of living my

Jeff Sigel (10:14)
Right. One is interesting too. I have in the last year sort of come to this conclusion that in some ways, maybe the one of the one of the most problematic words in the English language is the word should. Right. because when you like I should be this I should be that in fact, I have this belief. I'm not a psychologist. So I guess

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (10:38)
I always say the same thing. I'm not a psychologist, but...

Jeff Sigel (10:42)
I have this belief that whenever you see somebody getting angry, frustrated, anxious, very emotional about something, it's almost always because there is a mismatch between what they believe they should be and who they actually are. that I think was what was, know, this sort of tremendous amount of, a lot of this sense of anxiety we have is when we are

I should be the CMO, but I'm not, and I'm gonna keep doing stuff to try and get there, and I can't seem to get there. And I just start feeling worse and worse and worse about myself, I feel anxiety all the time. And the reality is like, when you feel anxiety all the time, the chances that nobody around you notices that you're feeling that anxiety is probably zero, like that you are shedding anxiety all over the place, right?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (11:35)
Right. So question for you. know this is like a for me, it's a Gen X thing. I think our generation and the boomers before us were so intent on you need a nine to five job. You need to be the best at it. You need to be the top of the line of it. And that's the only way that you succeed.

Jeff Sigel (11:54)
I think that's right. I think that there is, you know, the work environment, one of the sort of psychologically damaging things is we have created a world in at least in this country, in corporate America, we have created a world in which we purposefully make people believe that if they, lose their job, or quit their job, they're going to starve.

Now, I'm not going to pretend like there aren't people who are in that situation, but for many people, that is not immediately true. They'll be okay for a while. And so think about this is if you are in this sense, if you are stuck in this mode where you believe that you cannot lose your job because all these terrible things are going to happen and you have a terrible boss, right? Your choices are, well, sorry.

your initial instinct is fight or flight, right? I quit or I want to tell them off. All of those tend to lead to the same outcome, I can't do either of those things because I will lose my job. And so now I'm stuck in that third bucket of freeze. I am stuck. I can't do anything. I have to...

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (13:02)
Yeah, pretty much.

Jeff Sigel (13:17)
I can't flee, I can't fight, I just have to sit and live with all of this terrible anxiety. And I think that a lot of people are stuck in that mode of, I just have to do this, I have to deal with this terribly anxiety and anxious problem. And so when I say, you know, I actually have said to people, I think we talked about this when we first met, I sometimes use the term

corporate PTSD because when I first left my corporate job, one of the first people I talked to used that term. He said, you're gonna feel corporate PTSD for about two years. I don't know, I'm about a year into it. But I don't know about you, like when you left corporate roles and whatever, but after I left my corporate role, I felt like, just these flashes of anger.

or just frustration or just rehashing things that happened in my previous job or whatever, or anger, or people that I just feel grudges against or whatever it is, all this stuff. And I remember telling somebody about this and I called it corporate PTSD and they said, well, it's not like real PTSD. And I said, I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know. I said, but I'm telling you,

This is real. If you spent years in this heightened state of anxiety, but you can't do anything about it, that has to be damaging, right?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (14:41)
is. It is. It's 100 % PTSD and it is complex PTSD. the way that I was taught what PTSD is and complex PTSD is that PTSD is a singular moment that maybe you have to work really hard on to get like a car accident and you have to get over the fear of being in the car and you have to get over the fear of driving, getting behind the wheel, that kind of thing. Whereas complex PTSD is that you're in this

steeped in this trauma for a long period of time. And it not only includes child abuse or domestic violence or homelessness, it also does happen in the corporate world. We are fixed on the idea that we have to stay in a traumatic situation.

Jeff Sigel (15:33)
And I think the other piece of it, and this is where my book came in, was that I think that there are, like, I do think there are systemic things that are causing that, but I actually think that there are times where, the person that feels like your boss, who often feels like the person that is like, you know, the person that's imposing this terrible experience on you,

is also under that same level of stress and also is feeling all like I, you know, I often say to people like when your boss is micromanaging you, which feels it can feel terrible and feels extremely toxic or whatever. I'm like, why does your boss micromanage you? And they'll say, oh, he's a jerk. don't know. I it. Whatever. He's mean, whatever. I'm like, I'm like, no, your boss is a micromanager because they are supremely insecure and they are worried that anything that you do

that isn't absolutely perfect is going to reflect badly on them. Now, I'm not saying that's perfect. Like that's not a good, that's not a healthy way to view the world because you you basically are treating somebody badly because of you're trying to do something for you, but it is not necessarily malicious, right? They're not like, don't want hit you badly. They're just feeling insecure. They are feeling anxiety themselves. And so that's why I say it's more systemic. I mean, there are horrible bosses. I'm not going to pretend.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (16:54)
Hahaha!

Jeff Sigel (16:56)
I'm just saying that if you stop for a second and look at this and stop demonizing your boss and say this is a human being, why are they acting this way? And I think what's interesting is we don't train people to do that. How do I look at a situation that is feeling horrible to me and be able to look at it say, can I do about it? Right? And that's like,

sort of the thing that I've kind of learned a lot about over this last year, writing a book and thinking about a lot of this stuff and going to therapy and whatever is this idea that, hey, there are things that you can do even when you think you are stuck and you can't do anything. This tendency, right, to get into this mode of total victimization, like I am a victim. It's like, well, okay, you may be a victim, but

Is there anything you can do about it? And so one of the things I'll tell people that are like, my boss is a micromanager. I'm like, well, they are really insecure. And the reason, and fundamentally they don't trust you. That's why they are micromanaging. That's the problem. They don't trust you. And I said, that does not mean that you are not trustworthy. It's not about you. They don't trust you. And so the question though is, well, what are you going to do about it?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (18:11)
Yes. Yeah.

Jeff Sigel (18:18)
And so the answer that I often give people if they are dealing with the micromanaging bosses, you need to work on creating the conditions where your boss does trust you. So what does that mean? Well, that may mean that you have to lean into focusing more on the details or putting stuff in front of them more often, sometimes I'll say to people,

send a message to your boss every Friday saying, here's what I accomplished this week. Here's what I need you to look at. Here's what I your help with, whatever it is, right? In some ways, the way to deal with the micromanaging boss is to feed the beast, right? You have so many details and so much evidence that I am trustworthy that you are eventually gonna go, please stop, you're fine. I don't need you to keep showing me.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (18:56)
Right.

Yeah,

Jeff Sigel (19:07)
what your natural reaction is like, why does my boss not trust me? And it's like, well, who cares why they don't? So let's deal with that, right? And so when I say this, I mean, I say this from the perspective of like, I never figured this out until, I had time to stop and think about it after I left that environment. But what were the things that I could have done? And so that was, you a lot of the book that I wrote was about, hey, there are all these roles that we have.

that are hidden roles. You think about your job as I do stuff, but when you get promoted, you're now not just doing stuff, but you're leading, you're influencing people, all these things. So I talk in the book about this idea of doer, leader, and influencer, and here are specific skills that you can use to become great at each of those roles. Because I think for a lot of people,

I'll show them that sort of doer leader influencer framework and they're like, I didn't even realize. Like they just thought, I was good at doing something. So now I just tell people to do the thing that I used to do. I was like, no, that's not it. That's not your job. But if if nobody tells you that, you you have to do all these things, then how would you know to do them? So, so that's sort of like, you know, I say all this, like not like,

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (20:13)
Hahaha!

Right, yeah.

Jeff Sigel (20:28)
I mean, I learned this, I feel like I learned this stuff the hard way, like we, think many, all do, but I feel like it's the kind of thing like, actually, we can actually alleviate some of that pain, right? If we actually treat people like say, Hey, here's, if you have a micromanaging boss, stop and understand why are they micromanaging? Like how do you, we don't train kids. Actually, was saying this to somebody the other day. I started practicing mindfulness, know, meditating, et cetera, this past summer. And it's been like,

life-changing, saying to somebody, I'm like, all the stupid stuff that we teach kids, you know, going through school, whatever that they don't need, but we don't teach them this stuff.

That's my...

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (21:14)
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Jeff Sigel (21:16)
story is like it's not just I mean it's real but it also is partly because we don't train people how to how to how do you manage that right

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (21:26)
So you were in, you you're, you're in corporate, you've been in corporate for a really long time and it's just feeling like it's not working for you. And you, and you had said that you felt like you just didn't fit. Can you tell me a little bit about what, what brought that about?

Jeff Sigel (21:45)
Yeah, mean, I think, like I said, I I was I've always had that sort of achievement mindset that I was talking about. And I work very, very hard and probably a bit of a workaholic. And and I was in this, you know, corporate role. At a fairly high, you know, at a fairly high level in this organization, like a vice president level, and I wanted to get I wanted to move up into a, like a C suite, kind of level.

And it wasn't happening. And, so I just was working harder and harder and harder. And just, I'm like, like, I'll just keep showing more value. And I'll just keep doing more things. And I just, it wasn't working. And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't getting, I wasn't moving up and I was getting feedback. you're great. But you're not, whatever. was like, at one point I was told you were one of the best leaders we have.

by the same person who later told me like a couple of weeks later, like, well, you're not leadership material for the executive team. I like, I don't understand what's going on here. I have a whole theory about it now, but And so I'm thinking like, well, what's going on here? I'm working so hard. I keep throwing myself even harder into this situation and I am not moving up and I am not getting where I wanna get to. And I finally...

I was working with a career coach at the time about, you know, sort of trying to get another job. had moved, we had, lived in Tennessee at the time and, you know, I worked at this company and we ended up moving back to Boston because of, I I think I mentioned this to you, my kids are both transgender and,

And so Tennessee was not a good environment for that. Whatever. Right around this time, I'm like, I want to get you. So at this point, I'm like, I wish I could find a job up in Boston, but I have this job in Tennessee. And so I'm flying back and forth to Tennessee. And I did that for two years and I'm working, and I'm like, getting frustrated because I wasn't finding jobs up in Boston, whatever. And so I had hired this career coach and he says to me, you're going to laugh because it's sort of like when I was like, really, this was your advice. But he says,

It's much better to look for a job after you get promoted. I'm like, thanks. I spent thousands of dollars for that.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (24:11)
Okay.

Yeah, thanks so much. That's appreciated.

Jeff Sigel (24:18)
I might not

even be talking. So he's like, you should ask. I'm like, okay. So I go and I ask and all I said, what I didn't ask for, I'm like, I did not ask for a promotion because I don't believe in that. I believe like you can't ask for a promotion. It's like, if they're gonna promote you, they'll promote you if not, whatever. But what you can ask is what do I need to do to move up to the next level? That's an appropriate way to ask the question. So I asked this question and my boss at the time says,

Well, you know, there's a problem. I'm like, no, I don't know what's the problem. And he says, I can't tell you. I'm like, you can't really tell me there's a problem that's impacting my career and not tell me what it is. He's like, well, you're going to have to talk to the head of HR.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (25:03)
okay.

Jeff Sigel (25:04)
This is like, okay, whatever. And so now I'm a little annoyed and I was like, did I do something wrong? Did I, you know, was there a complaint? I'm like, I'm like, I have no idea what this is about. And I end up getting a meeting with the head of HR. And she says to me, and I said, hey, my boss told me this thing. I don't know what it is. And she says, oh, well, you hate Tennessee and you live in Boston.

I was like, I don't hate Tennessee. She's like, well, you don't live here. I'm like, well, my boss doesn't live here either. He lives in, you whatever, some other state, you know, whatever. And so I was like, I don't understand what's going on here. And but I did. Right. I mean, this was ultimately there was a level of discomfort in this in and it was clear for the rest of conversation with the fact that I had trans kids, which is, you know,

pretty crappy reason to do it. But I was like, my gosh, like I have been beating myself up for years trying to figure out what I am doing wrong that is causing me to not be able to move up in this organization. And the reason was something that was totally like.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (26:26)
lifestyle

Jeff Sigel (26:27)
Like, right, it's like, I can't change this. This is my family, right? Yes. And so that was the moment where I was like, can't stay in this organization anymore. A, because it's not, you know, not achieving my career goals. But, you know, B, because clearly there's just such a mismatch with values. And people have said to me, oh, you could sue them. I don't know whether you can sue them. I don't really care. I don't really want to sue them. I just don't want to, I don't want to work in an environment.

that basically looks at a situation like I was in where, a state was actually passing laws that were sort of impacting my family, whatever. And the reaction to it was not, wow, Jeff, that must be hard. How can we help you? And instead the reaction to it was, yeah, you're never gonna move up in this organization. And so I was like, I gotta get out of here. And so...

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (27:18)
Talk about just the ultimate slap in the face. You work so, so hard for this company and all they can look at is your family situation.

Jeff Sigel (27:27)
Right. And with such, sort of lack of sort of, kind of a human understanding about it and whatever, and whatever, listen, I get it. know, corporations do horrible things, whatever it is. And people have attitudes and views that I find kind of, I guess, I mean, I don't know, to me, they seem like, bias, discrimination, bigotry, I call it.

And then at end of the day, my view is, well, listen, you get to choose who you want to promote in this company and I get to choose what company I work for. But I left there feeling absolutely terrible about myself, right? Yeah. And it was such a negative experience, in terms of my level of confidence.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (28:19)
Well, here's the thing. They were taking so much advantage of the fact that you're an excellent employee. You've done so much for them, but all they can see is the outside.

Jeff Sigel (28:32)
Well, and that's sort of one of the things that, I mean, I actually said to somebody in that company, very high up in that company, I said, you value me, but you do not respect me. the person said, no, no, no, no, we respect you. I'm like, no, no, no, if you respected me, you would care about what I'm trying to get out of this relationship, not just what you can get out of the relationship.

to your point, it's like, it was fine with them for as long as I was willing to keep doing it. It was fine with them for me to keep doing it. Instead of saying, like, let's just be honest with me. Okay, you're not going to move up. We recognize that you might decide to leave because you're not going to move up. But we want to be honest with you about it so that you can make, because we care about you, and we want you to be able to make an informed decision.

and we hope you will stay. And I don't know what I would have done if I haven't. Maybe I would have been like, okay, I'll actually like working with you, but that's not what was said to me, right? It just didn't, their view was, well, let's just not talk about it. And maybe Jeff will just keep dealing with it, right? You know, whatever.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (29:48)
taking that abuse.

Jeff Sigel (29:51)
Right, right. And for me, it's like, you know, this is the thing that I'd love to see organizations change is how do you, let's just become more honest, right? Like they didn't, I mean, in the end of the day, they didn't need me so much. I mean, I'm gonna say I was a good employee, right? I think they'd say I was a good employee, but they didn't need me so much that if they said, if they told me the truth,

and I left that it was going to be that much of a disaster, right? I mean, that's just, I'm sorry, but nobody is that important in any company, right? Not even this. Like the world will go on. So this sort of like, oh, I'm gonna do this because I don't wanna lose this person that I'm not interested in. If I could just sweep this under the rug, I don't wanna deal with it. But they could have dealt with it. then, I will say it has taken me.

some time to kind of move past that feeling of frustration and anger and grudge holding. And one of the things I did over the Christmas holiday was, one of the things that's happened over the last year is I became a much more aggressive networker. I meet people all the time. We met through networking, whatever.

and I've become much more of a networker than I ever was. And so I was just sending out notes, which I've never done before. I think I had a list of like, I don't was like 150 people. I just am like, hey, happy holidays, it was so great to meet you this year, best wishes for 2025, hope we'll stay in touch, that kind of thing. I purposefully included, I think it about 10 people that I felt like I had been holding a grudge against. I was like, not.

I and some of them responded and it was very nice and whatever and they weren't holding, you know, they aren't holding a grudge against me or they were having and others didn't respond at all. And I don't and I didn't really care because it wasn't about them. It was about me. It was about me saying, you know what? I'm going to stop wasting time being angry about or holding a grudge or whatever, because I don't need to waste that time anymore. And I'm not saying I'm perfect at this, but I'm saying all I'm saying is I feel like

That was sort of like a step forward for me. This is kind of go, hey, this is, don't need to do, I don't need to waste my time being upset about this anymore. And I just need to move on and, recognize that, there's a bunch of human beings doing the stupid stuff that human beings doing ado. And, know, in the end of the day, life goes on and, and whatever. And it was very, I'm not saying it wasn't frustrating. I'm not saying there aren't terrible things that happen in.

organizations all the time. for me, it was like, you know what, the more time I waste thinking about the past, the less learning, about, what's next and where I'm going to go from here.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (32:41)
Yeah, and it can be a relief almost to just say, OK, I let it out. I let it go. And now I'm moving forward in a positive direction. And you really have. mean, not only have you started doing the coaching and the book, but you also have these podcasts too. Like you've really stepped out from behind that corporate, what would you call it, veil.

Jeff Sigel (33:08)
Wait.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (33:09)
and have become a completely new person being able to be who you are.

Jeff Sigel (33:15)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's really interesting because I think, it's funny because, as you mentioned, I have, I have this podcast with a friend and my twin brother, it's called Twinning Strategy, right? And we have people on this podcast all the time. And but what's funny is, it's very hard to get corporate people like, like big corporate people onto a podcast. We people who are very high up.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (33:39)
Yes.

Jeff Sigel (33:42)
in smaller companies or mid-sized companies, you can get people who are of like more like independent folks or whatever. But getting somebody in corporate on a podcast is very hard because, well, what if I say something that the company's mad about? And again, back to this, like that constant anxiety and stress, like anything I do could be used against me anytime, right?

one bad presentation can basically, they'll hold it against, my brother has a story about it, one bad presentation, like his second week in a company and they were like, he can't present. Holy crap, like really? Like you're gonna basically say, again, it goes back to that point, like why are you looking at this situation and saying that your reaction to the situation is, hey,

Eric's somebody we really want to invest in, that's my brother. Eric's somebody we really want to invest in. this presentation didn't go well. We need to train him to be a better presenter. That's one way you can solve the problem. Or you can say, he did a bad presentation. He will never be able to do a good presentation. So he's not allowed to present.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (34:52)
So it's this toxic culture.

Jeff Sigel (34:54)
Right, this toxic culture and what you know, fundamentally, I believe that the source of toxic culture is an attitude of me, me, Yes. What does this mean for me? This guy gave a presentation. It wasn't great. It made me look bad. That's what it's about. Not, hey, this guy gave a presentation. It wasn't great. I need to help him get where he wants to go. Right? Right. Right. Not, hey, how can I help you? What can I do to

make this easier for you? What can I do to make this environment work for you? Literally just having a conversation about this earlier this afternoon about this very thought of how do you get people who are feeling anxious in an environment where maybe there's no reason for them to feel anxious? Well, they're feeling anxious. Well, my reaction is like, how do I make it about them? How do I turn this into, how can I help you?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (35:45)
Right.

Jeff Sigel (35:51)
If somebody is feeling anxious, again, it's often this issue of the disconnect between what they should, they think they should be and what they are. How do I help somebody move away from like, you should be great at your job. We were talking about this person that was new in a role, had just been promoted. And the issue was this person was feeling all this anxiety, emotional, getting upset, whatever.

What is it that we what this person is feeling like they should be something that they're not right? They should be good at their job. So the question is how do you say listen? I know you think you should be good at your job. But maybe what we need to do is shift your mindset from I should be good at my job is I'm not good at this job yet and I'm going to ask for help or I'm going I'm I'm going to you know, and and that's what we're here for. And so what I really want you to do is focus on asking for help when you want you to ask for help.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (36:50)
Well, feel like it's this, you know, it's that selfishness of, and people don't even, I don't even think people recognize it's selfishness, but it's that desire to climb that ladder that always has you focusing on me, me, me. What can others do to help me climb the ladder instead of what can I do for the people, especially who work for me, who will show that I can shine as well if they shine.

Jeff Sigel (37:16)
Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that. After I wrote my book, I came up with these three questions. Maybe it's the next book. I don't know. One of these days I'll have enough time to do that. It's a lot of stuff going on. But these three questions that I am convinced would change corporate culture for the better and maybe avoid some of this corporate PTSD, And the three questions are, what did you learn?

How did you grow your team and who did you help? And those three things are really about yourself, right? How am I making myself better every day? The people that work for me and then the people around me, right? And if you focus on that, again, back to the idea of like, this sort of came out of that whole conversation about that learner versus achiever mindset is how do I shift people's mindset away from

what we care about is the achievements and more towards what we care about is the growth. it's funny because I think I've said this to people before and they've been like, well, this is going to go, that's not going to work. We got to focus on the results or we won't get any results. And it's like, well, wait a second. If you focused on constantly asking these questions, what did you learn? How did you grow your team? Who did you help?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (38:21)
All

Jeff Sigel (38:40)
your culture will change, especially if the CEO does it, the culture will change. If you know you're gonna get asked, who did you help last week? Every time you walk into an executive team meeting or whatever, you will show up with somebody you helped last week, right? You can bring that down to your team and it will change the environment, move it away from the me, me, me, the promotion, the promotion, the promotion, whatever.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (38:43)
Yes.

Jeff Sigel (39:05)
and more towards, how do we constantly learn and grow as an organization? And I believe that is, I can never remember them all, but there are five things that I always say that people look for in a work environment. The first one is that there isn't, that the environment is not chaotic, right? The second is that they feel they have the tools to do their job well. I've got two of them, but it's, I won't go through all of them, but one of them is,

that they feel like there are opportunities to learn and grow. I always put the last, I'm missing the fourth one of them, but the one that I always put last is they feel like they are compensated fairly. The reason that I put that last is not because compensation isn't important, but I believe that most people do not, most people in the corporate world do not leave their job because of the pay. They leave the job because,

something was wrong with the environment. There was a bad relationship with their boss. They were feeling anxiety. They were feeling stressed, whatever it was. And they started looking for jobs and discovered that the pay was better elsewhere. But the question we should always ask in the corporate world is why were they looking? In my experience, people will say they left because of the pay, but usually they only started looking for a better paying job because something else was wrong.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (40:27)
Yeah.

Jeff Sigel (40:27)
You think you should compensate people fairly, just to be clear.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (40:31)
Absolutely.

Jeff Sigel (40:34)
But I believe that there are other things that people really care about. And one of them is, I grow?

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (40:39)
Yeah, as I create my company that I've started building, it's just me right now. And that's great. But fingers crossed, this company is going to grow and I am going to want to bring more people in to help me. Now, when I look at these people, I want to hire the people that know what they're doing better than me. Right.

I want the people who are better than me to be, you know, I don't want to be the best. I want all of these people who are underneath me who know what they're doing. And I appreciate that. And I give them their due, you know, for it, giving them the, you know, thank you, the thanks, the confidence in them to make them feel like they are appreciated and that they're doing a great job for.

day.

Jeff Sigel (41:36)
Yeah, absolutely. have been I just started writing I you know, I have a a blog newsletter that I write every week about middle management topics. And right now I'm in the middle of a five part series of chaos proofing yourself, your team and your business. And I started off this series by talking about what are that? What are the three sort of drivers? What are the three things that cause chaos in a business?

And the three that I came up with were number one, lack of trust from the senior, the most senior leaders. Is it back to what you're talking about? Like I need to trust that my people are able to do their job. Actually, like delegating is a leap of faith, not that your team will get it right, but that they will get it wrong and it will be okay. Right. That's how they learn and grow. Right. so that's number one.

Number two is something I call crisis leadership. That would be a whole podcast in and of itself. So I won't go too much into it, but I have this strong, like this strong belief that there are people who became leaders and were recognized and promoted because they were good in a crisis and they derive their value in the organization, at least perceive their value to be solving crises. So they actually create the crises to solve. don't really, they're doing it, but they don't necessarily do it.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (42:56)
So.

Jeff Sigel (42:59)
That's what they're doing. Anyway, that was a whole other

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (43:02)
Hahaha

Jeff Sigel (43:04)
Then the third one is something we already talked about, which is the issue of at the individual level is this issue of victimization. That people are, they feel like all of this chaos is happening to them and that they have lost their ability to have any impact on it. And so to bring that all back to sort of my experience, it was only really through writing. I sort of joking, I probably said this to you when we first met, I sort of jokingly say I wrote this book.

partly because I wanted to see what it was like to write a book, but partly because I wanted to work through my corporate PTSD. and a lot of what I came, a lot of the conclusions, you know, I, I tell people like, I would be reading my book for a million, you know, when you write a book, you read it a million times because you're editing, Reading my book and I'd be like, I would have these epiphanies. I would read my own story and realize, this is what ran on in this other situation. Right? Like people tell me that happens when they're reading my book that they'll

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (43:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Sigel (44:04)
they were reading some story like, oh yeah, that happened to me. And now I realize what I did wrong there. And I'm like, but it was happening to me about my own book. And so I feel like I learned a lot about my, myself and my own leadership issues and challenges and whatever by writing this book and talking about this book. I think, one of the things that I've come to realize is that you, you know, I of was talking with this, but you, have more control than you think you do.

you can't control what other people are doing, but you can control often how you are reacting to it what you're doing about it and whatever. so whatever that is, there's more, you have more ability to impact your situation than you think. And so that's what I have been, that's sort of been my message to people is, you know, it may not be your, I sometimes say,

It may not be your fault, but it's still your problem.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (45:05)
Right, yeah. Well, you really have so much, like looking back and understanding where you were and where you are now is just absolutely beautiful. And that you're able to help others now where you had suffered and they are probably suffering and need to come away from this in a more positive way.

Jeff Sigel (45:08)
Wow.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (45:35)
So you're wonderful, Jeff. You're doing the good work.

Jeff Sigel (45:43)
I do appreciate that. I do think that it's, you I think, you one of things I'm working on is not needing as much external validation, but I have not gotten past that. So I appreciate your

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (45:57)
Where can we find you?

Jeff Sigel (45:59)
So the best place to find me these days is either on LinkedIn, it's under Jeff Sigel or you can find me on my, I have a author website. It's literally my name, jeffsigel.com. And you can find out about my book and other things and podcasts I've been on and things that I talk about and all that kind of stuff.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (46:25)
Yeah, yeah, and that'll all be in the show notes so that everybody can come and see the awesomeness of Jeff. Well, thank you so much.

Jeff Sigel (46:38)
yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So glad we connected. And I'm looking forward to staying connected through the New England podcasters. Yes. I appreciate being on your show.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (46:52)
Thank you.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (46:56)
It's amazing to me that Jeff has taken his corporate PTSD and created a lifeline to those who are living the experience today. His knowledge and advice is so important for those who believe they don't have a choice in their career. Jeff is doing what many of us trauma survivors do. We work through our own trauma by helping others with theirs. Please take a look at the show notes for Jeff's book, his coaching, and also his podcasts.