From Loss to Legacy: Grief, Advocacy and The Power of Story with Lisa Sugarman

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (00:00)
Welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now, the podcast where we dive deep into the moments of transformation, the times when not yet shifts into right now and everything changes. I'm your host, Jen Ginty, and this podcast is all about those pivotal moments in our life journeys. You know the ones, when the hesitation fades, when we take that first step, even if it feels like a leap. It's in these moments that growth and healing begins. Each episode will explore stories of resilience,

moments of clarity, and the sparks that ignite real change. From personal experiences to expert insights, we'll uncover how people navigate the complex journey we call life and come out stronger on the other side. Whether you're searching for that spark in your own life or just curious about how change unfolds for others, you're in the right place. We'll discuss the ups and downs, the breakthroughs and setbacks, and how to embrace the right now, even when it feels out of reach. Because sometimes,

The hardest part of the journey is realizing that the moment you've been waiting for has already arrived. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's get started.

Jen (01:09)
Hello and welcome to When Not Yet Becomes Right Now. I'm your host Jen Ginty and today I have an amazing guest on our show. Lisa Sugarman is an author, nationally syndicated columnist, and a powerful mental health advocate who brings both professional insight and deeply personal experience to her work. A three time survivor of suicide loss, Lisa channels her journey into purpose as a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project.

and a storyteller with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, also known as NAMI. She's the founder of the Help Hub, a free, inclusive online destination for mental health resources, tools, and crisis support for all communities. Lisa also co-hosts the Survivors podcast, offering real unfiltered conversations around mental illness and suicide. She facilitates Safe Place, a virtual support group for survivors of suicide loss.

and her writing has been featured everywhere from the Washington Post to Psychology Today. Welcome, Lisa.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (02:13)
Thank you, Jen. It's so good to be here. I know, I know we got to chat a couple of times before today and there's been good anticipation.

Jen (02:16)
Yes, I've been waiting for this conversation. I'm so excited.

Yes, yes, so let's get into it. What is your origin story?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (02:28)
Yeah.

That's a loaded question. So my origin story is that I, as you mentioned, I'm an advocate, I guess, first and foremost, ⁓ kind of tandem advocate and survivor, equally as important. And I create a lot of content in the mental health space.

specifically dealing with suicide awareness and prevention and kind of that nuance grief and loss that's attached to that. And so I've always been a writer. And if you're asking origin, how did I get from where it started to where we are today? I've always been a writer. I wrote for magazines and newspapers in the early days and had written a bunch of parenting books. And that was kind of my space. I did that when our girls, have two daughters who are

grown and they're flown at this point, living on their own. But when I was kind of in the thick of parenting, that was what I focused on. It was that work-life balance and raising kids and all of those fun things. And about 12, it's getting close to 12 years ago now, I had...

a very unexpected revelation in my life. So a little bit of context and then I'll kind of drop that grenade. So I, mentioned it already, I'm a three time survivor of suicide loss. And that first loss came when I was nine years old. It was my cousin.

He lived up the street. He had a lot of mental illness that he was dealing with. He was young. He was only 18. And he took his life. And, you know, it obviously, of course, it stays with you. It becomes a part of your life. But I was so young that it was different than losing a friend who I happened to lose four years ago or different than losing my father, who I lost the year after my cousin passed away.

But I was told my father had died of a heart attack. And I found out almost 12 years ago, and here's the grenade, that my father had actually taken his own life. So that just created a huge shift. It did two things kind of simultaneously. It just completely broke me and it shut me down. I was doing a ⁓ lot of work just creating content.

Jen (04:33)
wow.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (04:48)
And I just, couldn't do it. I couldn't do it at that time. I just needed to take a step away. Everything was kind of upside down and backwards and I just needed to kind of hit pause. And that lasted a few years. It really, it really did. No one else knew, just my husband and my mom, not even my kids. And then little by little, I started sharing with my children the truth and kind of extended family and friends. And then all of a sudden it was out in the world.

I didn't know what to do with it. So I did the thing that I always did, which was to write. And writing about it became talking about it became a podcast about it became volunteer work and advocacy work and support group work and creating a platform and all the things that I've done since and continue to do. And, that's my origin story. That's, that's kind of what brought me here.

Jen (05:39)
Yeah, it's amazing how our brains can shut us down when it's just too much for us, right? You know, that time where you learned about your father after so many years of thinking that he was lost in another way to you, right? And you had said that that was the time you needed to just stop, hit pause and...

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (05:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jen (06:08)
Our brains do that for us, right?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (06:11)
Yeah, I didn't have a choice. Honestly, Jen, I didn't have a choice. It just was too impossible. It was too overwhelming and all consuming. And it was all of a sudden what I came to realize soon after I kind of started the regreving process is that I now had to grieve a second time.

Jen (06:13)
Yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (06:33)
from a completely different perspective as an adult versus a 10 year old child, as a mom versus a kid. there was so much to unpack. There was so much that was just so surreal about the whole experience that I didn't know where to start.

I wasn't really talking about it publicly because I didn't have my bearings. So I feel like in the last probably three years, I've really, even though I've been talking about it and writing about it and doing all this other work, I really feel like I have grieved him more, I guess, properly. If there's a way to grieve properly, it's not, there really isn't a way to do that. But it's more like I've allowed myself to grieve in ways that I didn't.

early on because I just didn't know which end was up.

Jen (07:25)
Yeah, when I had my brain freeze, when my brain basically said right now is when you need to learn to cope and to start healing yourself, I had lost my boutique and I had to go into bankruptcy. And I felt as though an identity was lost. You know, I had this part of me that enjoyed being in

the world, being out there helping others in ways that made them feel better about themselves, that kind of thing. So I felt like I lost an identity. And my brain shut off and was just like, no, you can't go forward now. You have to figure out some way of getting on the right path. And it sounds like for you, that's writing.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (08:15)
Well, it's always been. mean, I've been someone who's kept a journal since I could hold a pencil. I don't even know at this point how many hundreds of full journals I have in some trunk or Rubbermaid container somewhere in the garage. But I've always kept a journal in spite of however much writing I've done elsewhere in my life, like professional writing. It's my default.

it's just where I go. mean, I'm like, you and I are sitting here and I'm in my office and I like three inches away from me is, you know, a journal. It's like, they're always there. So that for me was how I always did a lot of my processing. Whichever time I was grieving my dad or anyone else, I mean, you know, we lost, like I said, one of our closest childhood friends. And I leaned very heavily into just kind of putting that.

energy and those feelings and emotions into that journal and you know and doing other sorts of writing that became equally as cathartic. So yeah we all find our way to you know to the thing somehow hopefully that that helps us.

Jen (09:24)
Yeah, that natural ability to just sit down and write out your thoughts. I wish that I had that. When I was young, I used to write all the time, but it was like creative writing. I always just wanted to create stories because I was in this traumatic environment. I tried to get out of myself in that way. But I've never really been able to journal. And yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (09:49)
Have you ever, I have a question. Have you ever,

have you ever tried, and this is a cool exercise that I do myself and that I've suggested to other people who just say exactly what you just said. It's not my wheelhouse. It's not where I'm comfortable. Have you ever tried just opening up a notebook, starting a timer, even five minutes, because five minutes when you're doing a task is actually kind of a long time. You don't realize it. Five minutes.

Jen (09:54)
Yes.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (10:18)
and you put your pencil on the paper and you write until the timer goes off. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. It doesn't matter what comes out. You're not pausing. You're just, it's a random stream of consciousness that comes out and eventually your brain is going to land on whatever thought is in your head. And then eventually as you continue to write, you'll, you'll hopefully stretch out that idea and find something that might be worthwhile.

Jen (10:46)
That's such a great concept. And I was going to ask you, what would you say to people who are like, I just can't journal? And you said it already. So there we go. You read my mind.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (10:52)
That's what I would say. Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, it has nothing to do with being a competent writer or a skilled.

you know, a skilled orator or it doesn't make it doesn't make a difference what your skill set is. If you can hold a pencil or a pen and you've got paper in front of you, just look, I look no further than the style in which I write, whether it be a column or a book or a body of work. I write like I talk. There's no great, I'm not, there are no Pulitzers coming here from the style in which I write, but

The point is, whatever it is that's in your head is valid. And whatever way you choose to express it, if it's in a voice memo, if it's on paper, whatever it is, is valid. So there's no right or wrong.

Jen (11:44)
Yeah, thank you for that because I think that that's really important for people to understand that it doesn't just come naturally. Sometimes you have to sit there and kind of force yourself to take care of yourself because isn't that what journaling is? Is a form of taking care of yourself.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (11:46)
Yeah.

It is, it's self care. It's like going to a yoga class. It's like meditation. It's like, you know, going to the gym. It's a way of kind of bleeding that emotional radiator. That's the way I always think of it when I'm writing. I tend to have so many thoughts swirling around in my head, in any given day, in any given minute. And sometimes you just need to put them in a place, maybe so you don't forget them. Maybe it's to help you process them or...

maybe it's just to get them out to create space for new thoughts, but whatever it is, it's like purging the system to make way for the system to work better.

Jen (12:43)
Yeah, ⁓ that's great. ⁓ So you have written multiple books and it sounds like you've written parenting books. Do these come along just as you go that you write these in the moment while you're living them?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (13:00)
Yeah, well, the first book that I wrote was an extension or collection, however you want to call it, of my column. I wrote a column called It Is What It Is for many, many, many, many years. And it started in my hometown of Marblehead, Mass., which is right near Boston. I know you know where Marblehead is, but ⁓ it's just north of Boston. And it got syndicated pretty early on, and it ended up just kind of blasting out everywhere around the country. And then because of the internet, it was all over the place.

It was just a lot of what we're already talking about, life, parenting, kids. There was definitely a focus on raising children and work-life balance, but I just, started writing them and a lot of people would give me feedback saying, when is the book coming? When is the book? And I had no intention of writing a book. And ultimately someone who I was very close to at the time,

suggested said, look, you're an idiot. You've already got a book right here. It's right in front of you. Just kind of pull it all together. So that first book is a collection of my own personal favorite columns back in the day. And, you know, there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds that were written, but I picked kind of my first 50. And that was just kind of a, that was just honestly kind of a springboard into writing other books. Again, I was in that parenting space and that

that body of work caught the eye of a publisher out in California. And we ended up writing one book together and then a second book together. And I'm absolutely thrilled to say we are just finishing, it could actually be this week, I'm crossing my fingers, the editing on ⁓ my newest book that'll come out in 2026, early in 2026 called Surviving, which is very, very different from anything I've ever written. It's the story of losing my dad twice.

Jen (14:55)
That is going to be an amazing story to read.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (14:58)
I hope so. It's been an amazing story just to write and kind of cultivate. It's taken me probably five times longer than any other book I've ever written, but it had to. It was so much.

that went into it. went back into therapy a few years ago after taking a 30 year break from it because I felt like there were things I needed to deal with and relating to my dad and it was having that perspective. And then it was being on crisis lifelines and running groups and being an advocate. And it was just so much stuff I was doing in the world that I felt like I needed to experience before I could fully engage in writing this book the way I wanted to. Does that make sense?

Jen (15:42)
Absolutely makes sense to me, yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (15:43)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And like had I just dug in and written a body of work around that subject, it would have been vastly different than the book that will come out next year. And I'm so grateful because it's like a three-part book. It's a little different in structure. It's a memoir, first and foremost. And then you mentioned that I created a platform called the Help Hub.

We are actually, my publisher and I are working, trying to work hard to distill down this massive directory of resources and content into this book. So that will be kind of a section of the book. And then I have a very, very large toolkit of online tools to help people if like they need to have a conversation with someone about.

about grief or if they're worried that someone close to them is suicidal or if they're dysregulated. All those types of tools are in there too. So that's a section as well. So there's a lot going on in between the front and the back of this book.

Jen (16:44)
And you've had experiences throughout your life of surviving suicide. So when did you start getting into the space, the advocating, the writing specifically?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (16:50)
Yeah.

It was, I think it goes back to you and I talked about how I did find out about my dad and that really kind of shut me down for a period of time. So that was about 12 years ago. So I would say when I kind of emerged from that space, I really just didn't feel connected to the work I was doing. Not that I didn't feel connected to.

work in the parenting space, I just felt like there was something else I needed to be doing. I just didn't know exactly what it was at the time. And I just let it come organically. And it really, if I kind of trace it back, it was such a, such a completely organic journey from there to here. Nothing planned, never stopped, stopped twice to think about creating a platform or in the beginning, being on the crisis lifelines or writing this book, like none of it.

was on my radar and I just kind of went with impulses to do different things and one thing would lead to another and another. And I never expected to be doing a podcast and now I'm doing this podcast that I'm so unbelievably proud of and grateful for. And so all this organic stuff came up, but the interesting thing is it all is so cohesive. It all somehow

fits together and makes sense together. that, you know, I think it was just coming out of that fog and saying, okay, I don't think this work is quite authentic anymore. There's something bigger I need to be doing. And I think it's with this experience as a survivor. And I was invited to speak on a podcast.

And this person didn't know me. had seen something that I had written. was the first thing I'd ever written about my dad publicly. Just a post, just a social media post. And they saw it and they invited me on their podcast. And the response that I got from that episode that aired just blew me off my feet and made me realize that, that there was something there in terms of the power of telling your story. And I just rolled with it and here I am. So there was obviously something to it.

you

Jen (19:08)
It sounds like you used your intuition to come to the realization that there was a new ⁓ space for you to be inhabiting.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (19:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's a good way to put it. It really just was, as I said, one decision followed by another and another. I kept feeling more and more confident that I was in the right space. And now, and I say this to my husband all the time, to the point where he's like, yeah, I you already just told me that 10 times. But I feel like I am in the place that not only I belong,

where I have the most impact or capacity to have an impact, but I also can't imagine myself ever being in another place, space to do this kind of work. So I'm in it for the long haul.

Jen (19:55)
Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that journey of starting into that sphere?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (20:00)
Yeah, I mean, which piece in particular?

Jen (20:03)
Starting out after you've had this long stretch where you just, you you weren't in the right space to move forward.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (20:11)
Yeah, sure. So again, I think it was turning to the thing that I was most comfortable doing to express myself, which was writing. And I ended up writing, as I said before, a little post. I think it was International Survivors of Suicide Loss Day. And it's a weird thing when you all of a sudden realize that you identify in a group like that.

that you're a member of a group like that. Like it never occurred to me. Like I'm a survivor. What do I do with that? What does that make me? And I just found my way. It was like just walking in a super crowded room with a blindfold on, kind of feeling around like, okay, that feels like it might be right. And I just went with it and I wrote that piece. And again, I ended up getting ⁓ this opportunity to go on this podcast and I just paid attention. Like I read the room, you know, I just started

listening to the things people were saying to me and really taking in the comments that people were sharing with me about your story was so empowering or inspiring or I feel like I can start talking about my loss now or I didn't know there was no timeline on grief or I'm a survivor and I don't want to be stigmatized so I'm not gonna let myself be stigmatized. All of those things started happening and the more they happened, ⁓

the more permission it gave me, encouragement it gave me to go ahead and keep doing the thing, which was to share this story and this lived experience. There's no great education. It's like, you know, school of life kind of stuff. It's just really, this is my life. It's unfortunate. It absolutely sucks that this is the thing that I'm focusing all of my work and energy around because

The reality is we're talking about my life. We're talking about my dad, my cousin, one of my dearest friends. And it's a horrible space to be in. However, I'm grateful that I know the truth. I'm grateful that I can be in this space. I'm grateful that I can take the experience and the pain. I mean, there's no other way to say it. was just, those early years were the worst of my life emotionally.

And I was going through it all with only my mother knowing and my husband knowing I was working, I was raising my kids, they were teenagers at the time. I was two different people every day of my life for years. No one had a single clue that I was suffering so badly on my own at night, that I would cry myself to sleep, that I couldn't look at pictures of my dad anymore for years. That took a long time to find my way back to that. And...

I did. again, I think the best way to explain it all is that I just went outside the things that felt comfortable and did all of the things that were uncomfortable. And they led me here.

Jen (23:17)
You know, that cycle that we end up going through, having this pain in our lives, and then taking some time to open up to others, even if it is, it's writing for yourself and then putting that out into the world and sharing that with the world, and then realizing that we're giving something to others, that we're inspiring others to feel less alone. I think that that, right, it's this power.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (23:43)
That's the whole point.

Jen (23:46)
that you go into the situation in pain and starting to learn from that. And then that sharing of it feels at first so scary, but then when people are saying, wow, you've really helped me feel less alone in this world, thank you so much, it then feels empowering, right?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (24:11)
That's the greatest gift in the world to me. And of course, as I mentioned before, we're doing this podcast now. And so we're reaching.

an entirely different audience of people. And we're getting DMs and we're getting emails and we're getting messages constantly because I do this. I know you know who my co-host is and she's just a force of nature and I adore her and her name is Gretchen Schozer and she actually has a very incredibly wildly successful podcast already called Shit That Goes On In Our Heads. And so we together get all of this feedback from people who are

Jen (24:31)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (24:51)
just so grateful that we're out there talking about this thing that everybody's been taught not to talk about. No one has the capacity to talk about it because it's scary, it's messy, it's incredibly sad and overwhelming, and nobody wants to touch it. And we're trying to break it all down. And when someone says, my God, I just listened to your episode and whatever the subject matter that week might have been, they say, I now feel stronger.

I now feel less alone. I now feel like I can say what's been on my mind. There's no greater gift than that as far as I'm concerned and I know as far as Gretchen's concerned.

Jen (25:34)
Yeah, and I feel the same way. When I decided to, so I created a plush doll named My Moody Monster and I created it initially for myself. I had been in a therapeutic group and I had said, I wish that I had a monster that I could rip apart and throw across the room and light on fire and you know, whatever I could do with it. And people were like, yeah, you should have that. And so I went home and I made one and it was just for me. I named it PTSD Pete.

Yeah. And, you know, I was using Pete and I was just like, wow, this actually is something that has helped me to let this all out, just get it out there. And when I decided to share it with the world and be like, I think other people should have this and getting the response of, can't believe that, you know, this has been helpful. It's empowering to me.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (26:03)
⁓ I love this whole thing. I love everything about this.

Jen (26:33)
I was so scared to get out there into the world, especially since I held myself. If I'm gonna put myself out there, I have to tell my story as well. There's a reason behind Pete, who is now Moody, but there's a reason behind him and I need to share that with the world so that they better understand, right? And I was so scared, but putting myself out there made me realize that

Our stories, and this is why I do the podcast, our stories help others to cope, help others to be inspired. Our stories are there. If we can get past that fear, our stories are there to inspire others to get what they need for themselves.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (27:24)
Right. And you know from experience, because you're a human and I feel like every human has had this experience that picture yourself in a room. You're in a room full of people, maybe it's an auditorium and there's a speaker and they ask a question and maybe either off putting or

personal or scary, whatever it is, and they ask people to raise their hand. Like, is this you or have you experienced this? And not a single person wants to raise their hand. And so nobody does until somebody does. And then every hand goes up and then every voice shouts out and then everybody starts talking. And then all of a sudden the playing field is like this, it's level. Everybody all of a sudden feels like they can be seen and heard and validated and they're not alone. And I think that that is the biggest

equalizer with the challenges that we face right now in the world with mental health and mental illness and stigma that's attached to all of those things is that when we share what we are dealing with, because our heads can be very isolating places. And even if everybody around you in the world is feeling the same thing, experiencing the same thing, we don't think we are. We think we don't think they are. We think we are the only ones who are. And it's that

community and that connection and that sharing that changes the landscape. So that's why you do it. That's why I do it. That's why any of us who are out there trying to just share our own experiences do it. It's for that reason. ⁓

Jen (29:00)
Yeah, it's community.

And you get involved with a lot of communities. Yeah, you put yourself out there. How do you feel when you put yourself out into a community at first?

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (29:05)
I do, I do.

mean, there's the excitement. Granted, it's a weird word to use when you're talking about the community that I'm involved in, which is usually survivors and people who are grieving. But it is exciting because it means I'm making new connections. It means I may be on the verge of getting something from that community that supports me and vice versa. And so to me, that's empowering and inspiring.

Jen (29:22)
Well, yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (29:42)
And yeah, I mean, it's a little nerve wracking at first when you're, you know, you're kind of putting yourself out there in a space you're not used to sharing in. But look, we have our own stories and they belong to us. That narrative is ours. So it's not right. It's not wrong. It's ours. There's no judgment because it's just our own personal experience, right or wrong. And so...

You know, I remind myself a lot of that. Sometimes you feel a little bit of imposter syndrome or you just wonder what you can actually bring to the table. And then I say, look, you know, when I feel those things bubbling up, especially when I'm going into a new environment, I just kind of shut it all down by saying, look, like either someone's going to get something from what you have to say or they're not. And if they're not, maybe someone else will. So.

You know, there is always someone out there who can connect with what you have to share. And that's why I do it. It doesn't matter if it's one person or 10,000 or, you know, it makes no difference. It's all relative. As long as you're reaching the people who need to be reached, that's the whole point.

Jen (30:57)
One of the communities that you work with that I absolutely think is one of most important that we have in this country is the Trevor Project.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (31:06)
I'm so happy if you're listening to the audio, then you're not seeing how big my smile is right now. I love my work with I'm so grateful to be a part of an organization like the Trevor project. They've been around for a long time. It's 27 years, which a lot of people don't realize. Yeah.

Jen (31:24)
Yeah, I didn't realize

it was that old of a community, of a group.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (31:28)
Mm hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people, millions at this point of people who we have helped through our text lines or through our crisis telephone lines, like where I volunteer is just such a gift to be able to be there to support.

young people who are in crisis. And for anyone who's listening who does not know what the Trevor Project is, if you know what the 988 Crisis and Suicide Lifeline is, then you understand what Trevor is. Trevor Project is a crisis and suicide hotline, primarily, but it's also there's a community there as well to support at-risk youth in the LGBTQ community ages 13 to 24. So that's our key demographic.

doesn't mean we exclusively talk to that age group. We definitely take people who are out of our demographic all the time, but that's our primary age group. And we're talking to people who are, of course, at imminent risk of harming themselves or harming someone else. We're talking to people who are dealing with abuse or some kind of emotional crisis, like they had a bad breakup or...

they've lost someone or they're trying to come out and they're afraid of being disowned. So there are a million different reasons why someone may call us for support, but I'm just grateful that I get to be on the receiving end of those calls.

Jen (33:02)
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people want to get involved with communities like the Trevor Project. How I've always wondered because I'm in the space now where, you my kids are grown there. You know, my my youngest is going to go off to college where I'm going to have so much time to be able to devote to others. How do you get involved with groups like the Trevor

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (33:27)
Well, I think first and foremost, it's really just identifying A, what it is that you want to do, B, who is doing that in the space that you want to be in. Could be Samaritans. I actually work with Samaritan South Coast here in Boston as well. ⁓ I do some work occasionally when I can with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. And it's finding these spaces and

roles within that space that you really are attracted to. And then you just dig in. just reach out to those organizations. Believe me when I tell you, especially nowadays, they want desperately people who would like to volunteer their time and their energy. They're looking for people who can be on crisis lifelines or who can moderate groups or who want to be trained to

support some kind of, ⁓ you know, some kind of effort that they're spearheading. So reach out. They all have pages on their websites that say become a volunteer, every single one. And that's the best place to start. Read about the organization, who they serve, how they serve, what's involved. I know in the case of becoming a Lifeline counselor, so Trevor Project has their own

their own kind of internal certification process that is different, for instance, from the 9-8-8 crisis lifeline, being a 9-8-8 counselor. I'm also a 9-8-8 counselor, and I had that training through Samaritans. But each one is slightly different, even though they do the same thing. And in the case of Trevor Project, it's very asynchronous. So you're kind of...

dictating the pace at which you move through the training. It's all online. You know, want to speed through it. You can really do it in three or four months very easily, but you're, you know, you're obviously going to have to dedicate time and energy to that, but it's all remote in terms of training. So it is really, really flexible in terms of achieving that kind of, you know, credential to get on lifelines. And then

It's really just a lot of shadowing and learning systems and platforms and things like that. But it's really identifying what you want to do with your time and who you want to devote it to.

Jen (36:00)
Thank you for explaining it because I think a lot of people say, I really want to get into this. I really want to start it. And then they feel the overwhelm of, well, where do I start? How do I get into these groups that I specifically want? the website having the volunteer ⁓ link, I think again, that seems overwhelming to people. Like they're going into a big wide world and it's good to know that you can really pare it down.

to what you want to work with.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (36:32)
You can and one thing I think that's worth mentioning is that let's say you decided for argument's sake because we're talking about Trevor Project, let's say you decided that you wanted to pursue a volunteer role at Trevor Project and you thought this was for you, this was the right organization, this was the right way to spend your time and you went through the whole protocol of getting

you know, getting trained. And then let's say you end up on lifelines and for whatever reason, it's too much. Maybe you're an empath like I am and you're taking it all in too deeply. It's affecting you too much. You reserve the right to say, look, this is more than I can handle in this capacity, but I want to help.

What else can I do? Where else can I go? How else can I serve this organization? So it's not cookie cutter. It's not you. You don't have to commit to something that doesn't feel right to you. If you realize it's not right for you when you get into it, there's you do have that ability to back out of it and say, OK, this way doesn't work. Let's find another way.

Jen (37:46)
That's so good to hear. Again, I think people just feel like, what if I'm not up to the task? They don't realize that there is many parts to the background, and they're afraid that, if I get into this one part, I will be talking to people in crisis management trying to help them. And they're scared of that. So there are so many other things that you can do.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (38:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And it is scary. I know as speaking as someone who is a highly, a highly sensitive human being, my whole family was was really twisted in knots about me being on lifelines talking to people who are in crisis because

Every single one of them was worried that I would become too emotionally overloaded or affected. And they were right, that it was definitely a fear that I had, a concern that I had, a possibility that I had in my mind. But I just promised them the same thing I just said to you. I said, look, all I can do is do the thing. And if I find out for whatever reason the thing is not right for me, I will do another thing. And it was as simple as that. And I just happened to find...

that it did work for me and that I did have the capacity to do the thing I wanted to do. But I always knew that if I had to find something else, it would be as simple as finding something else.

Jen (39:10)
Yeah, thank you again for really just sussing it out for everyone. And I feel more comfortable after you talking about it. Yeah. And I hope that the listeners feel more comfortable that they can actually do this, reach out and help others in their lives and not in their lives. People who you can make, you have an effect on that you didn't realize that you really could just by listening.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (39:19)
I'm glad.

Yeah, holding space is a privilege. It's an art in a lot of ways, just to be able to take in what someone else is saying without judgment or without trying to necessarily fix the situation. It's not our job. Even as a crisis counselor or a clinician, it's not.

the job to figure out the solution. It's the job to guide in different directions, to maybe give resources, to maybe hold space for sure. And in a lot of cases to deescalate, but as much as every single one of us out there who's in a helping role wants to be able to fix everything up, it's not the way that it works. It's not what we're designed to do. We're just, we're there.

for very specific reasons. I think that's something that when I really internalized that and I really realized that it was a big load off my mind going into every crisis shift because it's...

It's a scary thing to know that you're taking a phone call from somebody who might very well be at their lowest point or might very well be in an in process attempt on their own life. I mean, that is as scary a situation as it gets. But when you, when you take a step back and you say, okay, I'm here to listen and validate what that person has to say, you would be stunned to know how

how often just doing that is what that person needs.

Jen (41:22)
As someone who's a multiple survivor of attempts, wish that 9-8-8 was available to me. Because I was a kid in the 80s and early 90s. I many times just didn't know where to turn. to have this capability for someone just, and you can even text now. So you can be as anonymous as you possibly can.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (41:47)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Jen (41:52)
and not feel as though you're ⁓ going to be belittled or told to snap out of it, like maybe the voices in your head are telling you to do. Get your shit together, that kind of thing. To have someone so supportive on the other end of a phone line is an incredible resource.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (42:15)
Yeah, we're lucky. We're very lucky that we live in an age where we have these resources available. And, you know, for the vast majority of us, have that capability in the palm of our hand on any given day, in any given minute. And it's three digits away. It's 988. And obviously the Trevor Project is a different number, but we...

all have the capacity to reach out for help that is either a call or a click away. And that help is always in the palm of our hand. And one thing I want to touch on, because something you said just made me think of it that I think could be valuable in this conversation, has to do with what it's like when someone calls. You mentioned how people have the capacity to be kind of anonymous. And for a lot of people, they need to be. They want to be.

Jen (43:06)
Mm.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (43:09)
It's safer. So even if you're talking to somebody like me, who's a counselor, and you're actually talking to my voice, you don't have to give me your name. You don't have to tell me where you're calling from. I mean, we're going to ask you the questions because we're just all we're going to ask you is what name do you want us to call you? It doesn't matter what you tell us. We're not asking your last name. We're not asking your street address. We'll ask you what city and state you're in because we want to know the area.

that you're in in case you need resources specific to that area, but you get to choose whether you tell us or you don't tell us. You can tell us just the state, not the city. You don't have to tell us anything at all. We do ask how old people are just so that we have a sense of who's calling. You can lie about that if you're gonna, you know, if you're not comfortable, you can, you know, you can give a different age.

Jen (43:57)
you

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (44:03)
There is as much anonymity in a conversation like that as you want or need there to be. And I think that that's a really important thing. People don't know what to expect, especially if you've never called a crisis line. It's terrifying. And also you don't have to be suicidal to call a crisis line. It can be just something that you're struggling with that has you dysregulated. That's a reason to call.

Jen (44:31)
Yeah, you're right about that fear that people won't call because they're so afraid to be identified and to be asked questions that are uncomfortable. But you run the show when you call.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (44:46)
Yeah, yeah, we're just there to listen. We're there. It's your call. If you're the caller, what you talk about, how you talk about it, obviously, we're going to ask you questions and be prepared that within the first five minutes of a call on any crisis lifeline, and I know this to be true of Trevor and I know this to be true.

on the 988 Crisis Lifeline, within the first five minutes, a counselor is going to ask you very directly, are you thinking of killing yourself or harming yourself? And the reason why we ask that is not to freak you out or put the idea in your head. It's because we need a baseline. We need to know, no, this person has no intention of harming themselves and they really just want somebody to listen, or yeah, they are on the verge of doing something irreparable to themselves and...

we need to intervene and we need to get them resources or have a different level of a conversation. So just know that everybody's being asked the same question and it's because our primary goal is to make sure that A, you are safe and B, that you stay safe.

Jen (45:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's get to the Survivors podcast. I love this story so much, Lisa. And I love how you and Gretchen got together and just the journey that you guys have been on for your first season.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (45:56)
Thank you.

Yeah, and what I told you before we hit record is that I'm watching my, I'm watching the clock because she and her wife are actually on their way to Boston right now. And we get to meet for the very first time in person and we're both just wildly excited to be in the same space. Yeah, yeah, we're like family at this point. And it's just so funny how things happen because

Jen (46:27)
I love it!

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (46:35)
As I mentioned, Gretchen has this other very successful podcast called Shit That Goes On In Our Heads with another co-host. Their handles are G-Rex and Dirty Skittles for that podcast. It's very funny. Their little stage names are so cute. And we connected back in probably October of last year because I was invited to be a guest on their podcast. And...

Jen (46:46)
Dirty Skittles.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (47:01)
As you know, because you are a podcast host and you're also going on their podcast, you with some podcasts have a pre-call where you just make sure you're in alignment with what you're going to say and whether or not it jives with podcasts and all that. It's very quick. Ours was not quick. Gretchen and I were on the phone for, I don't know, between two and a half and three hours on a call that was scheduled to be 15 minutes. And we just instantly realized that not only did we have

so much shared lived experience in so many different ways, especially around suicide. But we just had this chemistry. Like we clicked, like we had known each other. I think after the first or second time we ever talked to each other, we were like, I love you. I'll talk to you later. Like it was just so silly, but it was so, it was such a powerful connection. And we, we talked again. The next time we talked, we, we knew that we wanted to do something together. We just didn't know what it was.

And so we had another call and I think it was just as long. And we, I had wanted to start a podcast. My husband had been encouraging me to start a podcast for a long time. And I, I knew what I didn't want to do. And I knew what I did want to do. And I didn't know anything else. I just had these vague thoughts of what it might be, but I knew I wanted to just have conversations with someone who understood suicide and that kind of loss. And so.

we both kind of blurted out at the same time, we should do a podcast together. And she's already, you know, doing this incredible podcast that's getting millions of downloads. And I said, are you, have you lost your mind? Like you're, you're already doing this thing with someone else. She's no, no, no, no, no, it's okay. I just retired and I have time and this is very important to me. So let's, let's work through it. And we spent probably four months just building

the framework for what is now the survivors, what our logos were and our mission was and our topics were and our format was. And we just put it all together, worked our asses off for about four months and started recording in March. We are now three episodes into season two. We are, it's wild, we are in the top 1 % of all of the new podcasts in the U.S. right now.

Jen (49:26)
Congratulations.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (49:27)
Thank you, thank you, thank you. And we are so inspired to keep having these conversations. We have become like family and we're just breaking down this stigma around suicide. And the neat thing about our experience, we're both mental health advocates. So we both have that perspective. I'm a crisis counselor and she's...

survivor of an attempt and I'm a survivor of multiple suicide losses. So we kind of have the full circle of of lived experience around suicide and can talk about it from so many different angles and that is exactly what we do every week, every Wednesday. We just come on and talk about some different nuance of suicide or just surviving, like what it means to survive as a human. So that's our podcast and I'm

So, and I know I can speak for, I call her G, but on our podcast, I know I can speak for G. We are so incredibly proud of this podcast and what it's doing in the world. So if you haven't listened to it, I know you have, but if someone else out there hasn't, please listen. Thank you. Thank you.

Jen (50:39)
Highly, highly recommend The Survivors. It has been,

it's been an eye-opener. It's been, again, as I've said before, sharing stories makes people feel less alone. And it has made me feel less alone in times.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (50:51)
Right.

I'm so glad. And the interesting thing about the subject matter, like, yeah, it seems super nuanced. It seems like, well, I wouldn't listen to that if I haven't been impacted by suicide. But the crazy thing is, in this world that we're living in right now, if you have not been in some way affected by a suicide loss, either as the person who has attempted and not succeeded or someone who has lost someone to suicide or knows someone who did,

If you haven't experienced it in any of those ways yet, you will. It is inevitable. It is a matter of time because there are 94, over 94 million people on this planet every year who are in some way affected by suicide loss. So that's a pretty big community and

Jen (51:45)
Yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (51:47)
Even if you just want to know how to help someone who may be struggling in that way in your life, like it's valuable in so many different ways. we hope we keep gaining the traction that we've already got.

Jen (51:59)
Yeah, and finally, I'd love to hear a little bit about the help hub.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (52:03)
I'm also smiling really big when you ask me that question. So the help hub, help hub is something again, that was very organic. Did not have a plan to create this platform. I had a little website, lisasugarmann.com and it's just the place on the internet that I put my work if someone wanted to see what I did in the world. And that was it.

Jen (52:06)
You

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (52:30)
And then I got involved in advocacy and I got involved in crisis counseling and I got involved with a lot of these organizations and kind of made that big shift into the mental health space. And I realized pretty quickly, especially being a Lifeline counselor, I realized pretty quickly how critical it is to get resources to people who are struggling as quickly as possible. And I also realized how difficult it is.

for people who are in the mindset of they're struggling, they're dysregulated, they're experiencing trauma or grief. You're not in a head space to be thinking critically or clearly about what you need. Like you're a mess. The last thing in the world you have the capacity to do is research what crisis line to call or what therapist to use or what support system to try and find.

Jen (53:15)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (53:27)
Like you just need the resources when you need them. Right. Okay. So, and I appreciate that validation. So I started kind of accumulating a list of just my own like private list of organizations, like the big ones. Like we've talked about, I worked with NAMI or Trevor project or Samaritans or all of these, a crisis text line, all of these big resources. And I just threw them up on my website as kind of a resource page. Like

Jen (53:30)
Yes, I can attest to that, yes. Yeah.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (53:56)
A lot of websites these days have resource pages with links. Well, I kept doing it and then I got kind of obsessed with doing it. And then I ended up with this resource list that was only the only structure was that it was alphabetical and it had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of of links and there was no way to go through it. There was no organization. And so I took a step back and realized how important this body of links was.

And it was actually one of my daughters, my oldest daughter. I love her. Thank God for her communications degree. She said, mom, why don't you just break it all into categories? You know, because everybody, even though we all experience things like grief and depression and loss and suicide and, and abuse and all of these, these big issues in our life, we experienced them very differently depending on what community we're part of. Like,

we may experience something differently if we're in the BIPOC community or the Asian community or the Latinx community or the queer community or if we're elderly or a veteran. So we deal with the same things, but there are nuances that are specific to that community that we need more than generalized help for. So, but there wasn't a place and that's what I realized. That's what it clicked like, but there isn't a place to find all that stuff for all these people under one.

one roof, so to speak. So I just ripped my website down to the studs and I rebuilt it and I rebranded it because all of it is help. Whatever it is you're trying to find is just a version of help. And it was a hub. So I made that resource list kind of the foundational piece of this website and then just rebuilt everything, all the content, started a toolkit, a virtual toolkit.

created a YouTube channel with hundreds of short form video content around a lot of these things as a survivor. ⁓ The podcast, The Survivors that I'm on, that pipes into it as well. ⁓ I can't even tell you now how many incredible partnerships and collaborations I have with organizations like CalMari and recovery.com and BetterHelp and Talkspace. And we're all working toward the same goal of helping people.

And so it just became the help hub. And now it's, it's really a destination for people to get news and content and resources and tools and lived experience. And it's all a trauma informed site and it's all 100 % free and will always be 100 % free. When you land on the help hub, the first thing that you see, I mean, it's a welcome video, but you, the first,

image that you see is what looks like a grid with thumbnail pictures and their categories. And when you click on a category, it shoots you to a page that's within the Help Hub, but it shoots you to a page, for instance, if it's veterans that you click on. All of the resources and platforms and crisis services that are on that, now that page are dedicated to veterans.

If you do it on the BIPOC page, everything, all the resources are dedicated to members of the BIPOC community and so on. So with categories for mindfulness that are more general and categories for online mental health and things like that. But it's now a place, it's a destination where people can get help and news and support and content and podcasts and soon to be books. you know, all of this material to help.

their overall mental health and wellness, no matter what community you're part of.

Jen (57:52)
Lisa, you're doing all of the good work. You know, you are, you have your hands in so many places where you are offering guidance and support to people who really need it. And getting that specific on the Help Hub, I can only imagine is a relief for people of different groups to be able to find what they need so quickly from you.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (57:55)
Thank you.

Thank you.

I hope so. mean, that's the idea. really the overarching mission is to put help and resources, a call or click away from people because I think about my dad, who of course,

passed away in the 1970s, the late 1970s, so hotlines didn't exist, resources didn't exist, not the way they do now, groups, clubs, people weren't talking about their mental health or unwellness. And I just don't want someone to ever be in the position that my dad was in, especially because my dad was one of the people who you did not know anything was wrong. Not a single sign or signal that anything was wrong. So I don't want anyone to ever be in that

where they don't have a place to turn. I want them to have what they need to support them in that moment and all the other moments.

Jen (59:12)
You've, like I said, you've done the great work that is a beautiful way of you showing your love for those that you've lost.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (59:26)
I appreciate that. That is the whole point for me. It's to honor them, to honor anyone who anyone has lost and to honor and protect the people who are still here, who are in jeopardy or crisis, you know, in jeopardy of making that choice or who are in crisis and don't know where to go. So it's, you know, it's a work in progress.

Jen (59:50)
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on the show. I know you have some great stuff coming ahead today. Yes.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (59:58)
I do, I do, I get

to meet my co-host in person for the first time, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be wild and it's so funny because we talk every day. We text a million times a day. We're, like I said before, we're like family and now we actually get to share some time and space together and just enjoy being in the same place.

Jen (1:00:02)
in person. I'm so excited for you guys.

⁓ I'm excited for you. Well, thank you again and thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Lisa Sugarman, The HelpHUB™ (1:00:26)
Thank you. Thank you.

My pleasure, happy, happy to be here and appreciate the invitation.

When Not Yet Becomes Right Now (1:00:41)
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the podcast. This show is produced by Phoenix Freed LLC, and I'm your producer, Jen Ginty We hope you found today's conversation insightful and inspiring. If you have a story of your own about when a not yet moment became a right now, we encourage you to reach out and share it. You can find more information about being a guest on our show at whennotyetbecomesrightnow.com. Remember, you are not alone on your journey, whether it's a journey of healing,

growth or transformation. Every story matters. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time with another inspiring episode.